Jeans & mass punishment? #2

[Good2Golf]

G2G - in 4th yr, it was 5s in town during duty hrs.

5's!  Man, you guys really had the easy times in the 90's! SKT and I would have killed for 5's!  We had to live in a shoe box...

When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

And you were always able to non-assumptively identify 100% of the offenders and leave 100% of the non-offenders untouched?  If only the CAF had more of you, X Royal...

Regards
G2G

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Jesus wept.

Did no one read what HB posted?

RMC is a training establishment.

At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.

This Commandant has arrived at the conclusion that the Cadet Wing needs a reinforcement in the concept of collective discipline. The jeans thing is a bit of a red herring. But hey- it says right there in the Q&ROs we can violate orders that we personally judge to be ridiculous, right?

In fact, we follow all orders, unless we find them to be manifestly unlawful. I am pretty sure jeans fails to sink to the standard of beating a thief to death in Somalia.

But since the Airborne Regiment was raised as an example, I was in Petawawa in the early 1990s. There was a group of people who sincerely believed they could pick and choose which orders to follow.

How did that work out for us all?

We can all google "Shidane Arone" the photos aren't pretty. 

If there is one thing I've learned about RMC, everyone has their own opinion of how they would do this or do that with respect to running the institution.  What I know, we have support from the very top and we are operating IAW NDA, QR&Os, DAODs and CFAOs.  That is what matters to me.

 

[Good2Golf]

We can all google "Shidane Arone" the photos aren't pretty. 

...and count how many of the officers involved up to the TF Commander were RMC graduates... :not-again:

If there is one thing I've learned about RMC, everyone has their own opinion of how they would do this or do that with respect to running the institution.  What I know, we have support from the very top and we are operating IAW NDA, QR&Os, DAODs and CFAOs.  That is what matters to me.

^ this!

 

[X Royal]

At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.

Why?
All group punishments do is divide the group.
Counterproductive to a strong group.
Proper leadership takes thought to deal with the problems not just punish all.
When I was instructing a basic course and all was good except the bathroom sinks I didn't punish the whole group. Only those responsible for cleaning the sinks and the course senior for ensuring it was done properly.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I’m failing to understand why there is such contention surrounding group punishment or whatever else it’s referred to as. It’s nothing new during training—at least not for me. While measures directed solely at an individual are necessary under certain circumstances, superiors also arrive at the conclusion that collective discipline is necessary for whatever reasons also—sometimes it’s a combination of both. Both exist and both serve their purposes. There are times when either method isn’t delivered as methodically and exactly as perhaps it should have been, but c’est la vie—life goes on. It ticks people off, they get over it, they move on, hopefully lessons are learned on all levels.

I have always been under the impression that, especially when being trained (officer and/or ncm), one is not awarded the luxury of deciding which rules/policies/(lawful)orders etc they decide they do or do NOT want to follow. I’ve also been distinctly under the impression that just because one person gets away with doing something doesn’t mean it’s free reign for others to follow suit until someone gets caught/punished.

Sure. Ideally, from my point of view, it would’ve been much easier had people been crunched-on for dress code infractions much earlier on (and maybe they were) prior to it becoming a massive issue. But if it was, individual discipline wasn’t working. So what’s the next step in order to get the point across that strict change is/was needed? If one doesn’t like it, handle one’s complaints appropriately. And grand scheme, it’s simply not a big deal for a person to have to adhere to a certain dress code for a very small fraction of one’s life. Honestly. And even less so being CB’d for a short time. Grand scheme.

On a personal level I’m disgusted that students went to the media about this. It screams ridiculousness and reeks of poor entitled brats who don’t get to do what they want when they want—IN the military? Uhhh... So now the school has completely unnecessary complications to deal with on top of trying to address the issues that HB very kindly explained, which shed much-needed light on the entire situation.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Why?
All group punishments do is divide the group.
Counterproductive to a strong group.
Proper leadership takes thought to deal with the problems not just punish all.
When I was instructing a basic course and all was good except the bathroom sinks I didn't punish the whole group. Only those responsible for cleaning the sinks and the course senior for ensuring it was done properly.

Good for you. I assume you did this because you judged it the correct response for the situation?

Can you not at least give the Commandant of RMC the same consideration and assuming he is doing what he is for the right reasons? Since none of us are actually at RMC?

 

[stellarpanther]

With all the problems, moral issues etc at RMC, this action IMO is going to undo any progress that may have been gained.  It was said somewhere here that 95 percent of the cadets follow the rules. Would it not have been better to have staff hand around to personally identify the offending mbrs.  I can guarantee that this will be viewed as a punishment regardless of what the Comdt wants to call it and things will be worse. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

IMRO there comes a time in training when individual punishment fails to work. Punishing the group sometimes yields surprising results.  People respond differently when others are being punished for their failing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=stellarpanther] I can guarantee that this will be viewed as a punishment regardless of what the Comdt wants to call it and things will be worse.
[/quote]
If they can't follow the rules maybe they should quit.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

IMRO there comes a time in training when individual punishment fails to work. Punishing the group sometimes yields surprising results.  People respond differently when others are being punished for their failing.

Exactly.

Group discipline is not my "go to setting" for correcting behaviour. But it is a legitimate and time tested tool in the toolbox.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was just about to post exactly what you just said.  In my opinion, the only thing they are going to do is possibly make some cadets afraid to wear jeans while there.  This will be viewed as a punishment by the cadets regardless of the real reason.  Once they leave RMC they will be in leadership positions and do as they please for the most part.  Unfortunately, the CAF is always slow to adopt change.  they have a kinds of meetings and town halls asking for peoples opinions and suggestions and then just say no. I and many of my peers believe these are all for show so it makes the leadership look like their listening when in reality they don't care.  It's there way or else.

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”. General George S. Patton

 

[stellarpanther]

If they can't follow the rules maybe they should quit.

...or maybe those with archaic ways of thinking should retire if they can't adopt to what is accepted in society.

I just mentioned this thread to my son and his friend, both in high school and their comment was "that's why a lot of kids don't want to join the military anymore.  I'm starting to think that RMC and the rest of the military is going to go the way of the navy and everyone is going to release or simply not join.

My question to those here that may be in senior leadership postion is this:  You do survey after survey and hold townhalls to discuss the issues that concern the troops but you rarely listen to them or it takes forever to implement a simple change that a CO can quickly make.  Why even bother because to be honest, it makes things worse when they know leadership is aware but not willing to do anything about it.

A simple example is this.  In Ottawa many units allow civi Fridays, others don't for the simple reason of the CO not being a fan of it.  In my mind that is a simple way to improve moral that causes zero harm to anyone but it doesn't happen because one person simply doesn't like it.

 

[dapaterson]

So, HB, if I understand the chronology:

1. Senior cadets engage their CoC to get things changed;

2. CoC says no, sorry, rules remain;

3. Senior cadets unable to get subordinates to follow rules;

4. Group punishment.


May I suggest that the CoC skipped step 3a: Replace cadet leadership?  Why can't new people be given senior appointments midway through the year, if those filling the positions can't get the other cadets to obey?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So, HB, if I understand the chronology:

1. Senior cadets engage their CoC to get things changed;

2. CoC says no, sorry, rules remain;

3. Senior cadets unable to get subordinates to follow rules;

4. Group punishment.


May I suggest that the CoC skipped step 3a: Replace cadet leadership?  Why can't new people be given senior appointments midway through the year, if those filling the positions can't get the other cadets to obey?

You're missing a few steps and your understanding of the situation is only partially correct.  Firstly, Cadet Leadership changes every semester.  The Training Wing Staff looks at how Cadets performed each semester and based off that performance assigns them leadership positions.  This Barslate has been in position since January and we will begin looking at next years positions in about a month from now. 

The reason Cadets aren't removed wholesale from Barslate positions is because as I stated earlier, this is a training institution.  The Senior Cadets will be afforded the opportunity to correct their mistakes.  That isn't to say Cadets can't lose their bar positions, I removed one Cadet's bars this semester for very poor Academic Performance for instance and awarded them to another Cadet who was taking their schooling more seriously and had been passed over for positions.

You should also know that every Cadet has a training file that is internal to the school, everything they do is noted by me, whether it's good or bad.  This file is sanitized when they graduate and a course report is generated.

 

[Gunner98]

IMHO the jeans issue is the last straw that finally broke the Comdt's patience.  Rather than allowing things to remain at business casual (vice jeans) he could easily change it to Dress 3, 4 or 5s as walking out wear.  Business casual is a happy medium I think.  Do they have set meal hours and class times or can Cadets come and go as they please.  What if the Cadets are not morning people couldn't we just change the class or meal times?  They are attending a military institution, therefore, rules, self-discipline and standards should be the backbone of their learning.  If it was the haircut, footwear, headdress policy would corrective action been so objectionable? 

At a time in history when woman, minorities and transgender folks are fighting to be treated the same as white men - is this really about jeans or is it about respect for standards? Respect is a two-street as long as a mob (mentality) isn't coming from one direction!

 

[JesseWZ]

A simple example is this.  In Ottawa many units allow civi Fridays, others don't for the simple reason of the CO not being a fan of it.  In my mind that is a simple way to improve moral that causes zero harm to anyone but it doesn't happen because one person simply doesn't like it.

I strongly disagree with your statement. Unless you are in the CO's head, I don't think you can speak to all the reasons he/she has for making a particular decision. Perhaps there are operational or administrative reasons people need to be in uniform at the unit. Or perhaps the CO and RSM have witnessed civi Fridays lead to other disciplinary or administrative problems in previous units, or perhaps certain personnel needed to be in uniform and it created an unfair work environment for the privileged ones who could wear civilian attire.

As a leader (at all levels) your responsibility is to push back (in private) but support in public. That's the hard choice. Sometimes you can't be "one of the boys" when it comes to unpopular orders.

If it comes down the CO's mind won't be changed, then I suppose you can take your release and wear civis everyday should you so choose.

 

[Halifax Tar]

As a leader (at all levels) your responsibility is to push back (in private) but support in public. That's the hard choice. Sometimes you can't be "one of the boys" when it comes to unpopular orders.

That is an astute statement and it is a problem I have seen infecting leadership in the CAF for a while now. 

 

[pbi]

I understand that we are supposed to report anyone who violates regulations etc but has anyone ever considered what happens to the person who "rats out" his co-workers, it's not always good for them and I don't just mean in a violent way.  I've even heard supervisors comment that rats have no place in the military and they have no respect for them.  There has to be another way.

Unfortunately, this is the frightening challenge that all people in an organization face when they know something wrong is going on. It gets much worse in organizations like the military, the police or the fire service where the positive ideals of shared danger, service before self and "I've got your back" sometimes get conflated with a "code of silence" .

I think it's fair to say that in the last few decades, we've seen examples of what happens in the CAF when people (at various levels) decide to close ranks when they know something bad is happening or ignore offenders because they don't want to be the "rat". Bad things keep happening, and sometimes (thankfully fairly rarely), they get much, much worse.

When these young OCdts at RMC graduate and have to lead soldiers (who may not necessarily see things the way officers do), they are going to face this challenge. I guarantee it. If the CAF allows officers to think that it is OK for them as a group to observe a "code of silence" and not "rat out" peers breaking lawful commands (an order to wear dress slacks is not the same as an order to murder prisoners), then how well are we preparing to encourage an environment in which members are not afraid to report wrongdoing?.

Dealing with offences committed by individuals is certainly one part of the solution, but I think another important part is to teach the group that it must function effectively as group, not a gang of individuals. That may mean, in certain situations, rewarding or punishing the group as a group, to reinforce that sense of shared responsibility.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Know why everyone hates collective correction?  Because it works.  Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of it myself, but there's no doubt it's effective. To my eye, what's happening here isn't punishment, it's an enforcing of a regulation that was allowed to slide. Now the slide is being stopped. Does it suck? I guess. So does a lot of shit in the army.

 

[mariomike]

On a personal level I’m disgusted that students went to the media about this.

:goodpost: