Jeans & mass punishment? #2

[Humphrey Bogart]

I understand that we are supposed to report anyone who violates regulations etc but has anyone ever considered what happens to the person who "rats out" his co-workers, it's not always good for them and I don't just mean in a violent way.  I've even heard supervisors comment that rats have no place in the military and they have no respect for them.  There has to be another way.

Guess what: you are an Officer, that's why you get paid the money you do and have a Commission.  To be the person that can stand up and make the unpopular call, right isn't always popular.

You will eventually have to do it in your career, been there before and the last time I did it, it cost me a posting and a job I'd been working towards for over a year and a half.  I was not popular but it was still the right call and I'm happy I did it.

To me it depends on the seriousness of the violation.
Cadet X is seen uptown in jeans is not an situation which needs reporting In my opinion.
Cadet Y is seen stealing from other cadets is one, due to the fact if you were to straighten them out properly it could result in charges against you.

X Royal, I understand where you are coming from but I think where you are getting stuck at is you're focusing solely on the "jeans" aspect of this.  This isn't the real issue, trust me when I say this.   

 

[X Royal]

Holy crap- am I actually witnessing a Royal counselling the passing of a fault?

Sometimes knowing which fight is worth the trouble and which one is due to pure BS is the difference.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sometimes knowing which fight is worth the trouble and which one is due to pure BS is the difference.

On that point, you and I are in heated agreement!

 

[X Royal]

X Royal, I understand where you are coming from but I think where you are getting stuck at is you're focusing solely on the "jeans" aspect of this.  This isn't the real issue, trust me when I say this. 

Are you trying to say it's about an officers integrity and obedience to orders?
Sorry I have seen too many failures on that case.
In this example officers both officers and non commissioned both have their faults.

 

[McG]

Punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.  That really sounds like a punishment especially that Col Ayotte initially referred to the consequence as "confined to barracks" which is a punishment under the NDA. 

You calling it a “penalty” does not make it that any more than sloppily using the phrase “confined to barracks” make something the NDA punishment by the same name.

If you are not doing your job properly and so you get retrained, that is neither punishment nor penalty.

The term “confinement to barracks” has been used by several CAF schools to describe a period of intense military indoctrination where candidates are not worked from the time they wake until time for sleep, with maybe an hour or two for personnel administration, and no authority to leave base.  It was training and everyone would go through it as a matter of routine for DP 1 training.  Well, a few years back the Engineer
School caught some unpleasant attention because somebody felt they were entitled to do what they wanted wherever they wanted to do it after 1600, and a barrack room lawyer uncle went straight to NDHQ demanding to know why “confinement to barracks” was being extrajudicially imposed on the poor nephew and coursemates.  Well, a great big investigation later and the school’s process was acknowledged as necessary but it has forever since been called “restricted to base”.

So without fixating on a term that was used out of place, and considering recent information provided to this thread about the student population not having adapted to military cultural requirements for discipline, are you sure that you’ve given your final answer in this point of consideration:

Is it collective punishment or collective training?  It is not just a semantics question.  If there is a cultural problem across the student population, the institution needs to inculcate a correction - that takes collective training.  Given the academic schedule, where do you fit that outside of evenings or weekends?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Are you trying to say it's about an officers integrity and obedience to orders?
Sorry I have seen too many failures on that case.
In this example officers both officers and non commissioned both have their faults.

I believe this is what RMC is attempting to fix.

 

[X Royal]

I believe this is what RMC is attempting to fix.

It hasn't worked yet.
To me you either have the values or you don't.
You can't train them in. Yes they can hide for a while but personal values eventually come out.

 

[dapaterson]

Except we don't want blind obedience to orders.  When a a major in the Airborne issues an order that's a war crime (as he did), platoon commanders must be able to stand up and challenge it.  That is (in no small part) the driving force behind the degreed officer crops (recommendation #10 from the Report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces from 1997) - we want officers not who blindly obey, but who have the intellectual, moral and ethical wherewithal to understand what they do, why the do it, and prevent moral and legal failings of the institution.

Chickenshit group punishment for dress code violations would not appear to be a tool to develop such officers.

 

[McG]

Are you conflating a disagreeable dress standard with a manifestly unlawful order?

 

[garb811]

At this point I'm starting to wonder if the ones continuing to focus on the jeans issue even bothered to read HB's explanation of what the viewpoint on what is going on from the staff side of the house.  ???

 

[dapaterson]

Are you conflating a disagreeable dress standard with a manifestly unlawful order?

I am stating that we want officers who ask "why", and who challenge those above them (when it is an appropriate time to do so).

"Because I say so" is not a valid approach with a five year old, let alone people we want to be institutional leaders.


Has this been done well?  No.  Not by the students nor by the college.  I continue to be underwhelmed by the peninsula and all its inhabitants.

 

[stellarpanther]

It hasn't worked yet.
To me you either have the values or you don't.
You can't train them in. Yes they can hide for a while but personal values eventually come out.

I was just about to post exactly what you just said.  In my opinion, the only thing they are going to do is possibly make some cadets afraid to wear jeans while there.  This will be viewed as a punishment by the cadets regardless of the real reason.  Once they leave RMC they will be in leadership positions and do as they please for the most part.  Unfortunately, the CAF is always slow to adopt change.  they have a kinds of meetings and town halls asking for peoples opinions and suggestions and then just say no. I and many of my peers believe these are all for show so it makes the leadership look like their listening when in reality they don't care.  It's there way or else.

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

 

[X Royal]

At this point I'm starting to wonder if the ones continuing to focus on the jeans issue even bothered to read HB's explanation of what the viewpoint on what is going on from the staff side of the house.  ???

Or questoning the staffs veiw point?

 

[Sf2]

G2G - in 4th yr, it was 5s in town during duty hrs. 

 

[Remius]

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

Some times we don’t have good followers either.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Or questoning the staffs veiw point?

Questioning is always welcome.  After the decision was made the Commandant who is a Brigadier-General held a Senior Barmen hour with 4-Bar Cadets and above i.e. The Top 19 Cadets in the College, they argued with the Cmdt and the DCdts about the Jean policy and it was also explained to them why this action was being taken.  The Cadet Wing Commander who is the Senior Cadet has unrestricted access to DCdts and can talk to him whenever he wants.  I don't know of anywhere else in the CAF where OCdts can have open and frank discussions with a General Officer.

I maintain an open door policy with all my Cadets, if they have a problem, they are encouraged to bring it up and I will always work towards getting them an answer although I am always letting them know that doesn't necessarily mean the ruling will automatically be in their favour.

The morning this broke to the media, I read CAF Reddit.  The commentary was completely unprofessional.  "Lets shame DCdts" "lets troll his Facebook and social media pages" "I want to make sure everyone knows how terrible he is!" Blahblahblah

I've known DCdts for eight months and between him and the Cmdt, they have pretty much singlehandedly restored my faith in CAF leadership.  DCdts is a true professional, the man is at every Cadet event, is the first at work and the last to leave,  he is physically fit and leads by example.  A particular example of this is one morning I came in to work at 0515hrs to do PT a bit later with my Sqn only to run in to a DCdts ruckmarching around the Peninsula.  The man is a true professional, he has commanded at Squadron and Regiment level and has lost soldiers overseas.  The guy isn't some sort of Chateau Officer who sits in the gallery munching on cucumber sandwiches while sipping on cognac and smoking cigars.  He is the example!

Honestly, I was PO'ed at the Cadets who wrote that crap. 

The thing that made me most angry though was the following:

I went to RMC and those who know me well know I was no angel, more like a young punk with an attitude.  I broke the rules many times and made many mistakes.  I was twice CB'ed for 21 days in 4s and Gaitors for breaking CADWINS.  I was even charged (it's on my conduct sheet) and I pled guilty.  Not once did I ever not accept the punishment or feel the need to go on Reddit, call the National Post or not accept responsibility for my actions.  Honestly, if this is what some Cadets have decided to do, they are cowards and I don't want to serve with them. 

 

[X Royal]

And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

X Royal, you can continue to ignore the majority of what I say and cherry pick pieces to suit your narrative, that's your prerogative. 

 

[X Royal]

When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

Jesus wept.

Did no one read what HB posted?

RMC is a training establishment.

At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.

This Commandant has arrived at the conclusion that the Cadet Wing needs a reinforcement in the concept of collective discipline. The jeans thing is a bit of a red herring. But hey- it says right there in the Q&ROs we can violate orders that we personally judge to be ridiculous, right?

In fact, we follow all orders, unless we find them to be manifestly unlawful. I am pretty sure jeans fails to sink to the standard of beating a thief to death in Somalia.

But since the Airborne Regiment was raised as an example, I was in Petawawa in the early 1990s. There was a group of people who sincerely believed they could pick and choose which orders to follow.

How did that work out for us all?