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Israel strikes Hard at Hamas In Gaza- Dec/ 27/ 2008

Interesting how Fisk uses numbers from all borders of Israel to denote dead caused by Israel, yet limits Israeli "dead" at the hands of "others" counts to a mere "Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed."

How about he adds in those totals from the Lebanese border, the Golani region, the Egyptian border, the West Bank, the Israeli towns not near borders where rockets have landed, the suicide bombers victim counts all over the country??

I guess, in his mind, all those other Israeli dead are "excuseable" or "forgettable"? What a wonderful spin that is.
 
ArmyVern said:
I guess, in his mind, all those other Israeli dead are "excuseable" or "forgettable"? What a wonderful spin that is.

No different than the spin put on by most Western media outlets regarding the past deaths of Palestinians/Lebanese.
 
Bo said:
No different than the spin put on by most Western media outlets regarding the past deaths of Palestinians/Lebanese.

Are you suggesting that they "ignored" them?

I recall (and quite often at that) the western MSM bringing Israel and their actions to task regarding Lebanon, Sabra et al on my television set; the MSM certainly hasn't "excused" them.
 
If Israel wanted to destroy the population of Gaza we all know that they have the power to do it and then some.  For that matter it would be easier to just starve them out right? , most of the acess over land is through Israel. Hamas has taken/shown very little intrest in precautions for Civil defence or in building much infrastructure of any kind for "their people".  Rather they dug tunnels and built rockets and prepare for the worst kind of urban fighting sense Stalingrad in WW-2, all while using the Palestinian people to shield and justify their actions, not very honourable.  The sad thing is that the Palistians are stuck between both sides.
 
ArmyVern said:
Wow. Never actually been there have you?

Try being a white red-headed, freckly-faced girl with a napsack that you sit down on a chair & then walk 5 feet to place your order in a MacDonalds leaving the bag "unattended" in Eilat (well outside the Golan, the West bank or the Gaza) ... you'll have IDF or other security all over you in 15.2 seconds flat. I can certainly assure you that security of their citizens IS so their prioirty despite the skin-colour of 'suspicious' person or package; but they've kind of been forced to react this way towards security haven't they? Every time they let it down, some other "martyr" joins the cause of exploding themselves amongst the innocents (that'd be women & kids of Israel enjoying a simple pizza lunch or an evening at the Disco) who happened to have chosen the wrong venue to try to live their lives that fateful day.

A different concept being that these martyrs "target" those populations and non-military targets - all with the aim of instilling "terror." That's the big difference between the two.

Gaza: Roughly 1.4 million people crammed into 151 square kilometeres ... civilian casualty ratio (700) (war sucks) seems to be a whole lot lower than it was during Western bombing campaigns over Germany circa the 40s no?

Further, he could fly El AL Air and have to endure the 4-5 hour early check-in time and the hand searching of ALL baggage, plus the added bonus of being taken aside for further "checks" because you haven't shaved or slept in a few days and smell like a distillery!
 
ArmyVern said:
Interesting how Fisk uses numbers from all borders of Israel to denote dead caused by Israel, yet limits Israeli "dead" at the hands of "others" counts to a mere "Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed."

How about he adds in those totals from the Lebanese border, the Golani region, the Egyptian border, the West Bank, the Israeli towns not near borders where rockets have landed, the suicide bombers victim counts all over the country??

I guess, in his mind, all those other Israeli dead are "excuseable" or "forgettable"? What a wonderful spin that is.

Compliments on your sharp eyes and quick mind Vern !    If Fisk wants to keep, and skew, a Balance Sheet then here is the other side of the ledger to , well, balance it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/osloterr.html
 
Even including all those figures, the air strikes of the last few weeks are a disgrace, and I think that was Fisk's point. He also clearly stated that he has covered atrocities committed by the forces of many nations in the Middle East, and condemns them all. His slight transgression here is no where near the outright lies we get from the Israeli government and much of our media. Many of us who are critical of Israel DO NOT condone Hamas or any other group that targets civilians. I also do not forget that Israel has been the target of terrorism. When I say that Israel is not concerned over the safety of its citizens, I mean that rather than get to the root of the problem (the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories) they "treat" the problem with security measures. All the Palestinians want is a return to the pre-1967 borders, or 22% of their original land. You can argue with the tactics that they have used, but when pushed into a corner, people do desperate and often evil things. Israel however, is not in a corner.
 
No, but they do have their backs to the sea, quite literally, and surrounded on all sides by people who wish their annihilation.
 
Kat Stevens said:
No, but they do have their backs to the sea, quite literally, and surrounded on all sides by people who wish their annihilation.

And right there you said it, Israel's most powerful weapon.

No I'm not talking about their F16's or F15's. I'm not talking about their nuclear weapons either. No, Israel's most powerful weapon is their propaganda machine spewing out claims that they are constantly at the risk of being "wiped off the map".

It's laughable that Israel can be "annihilated" considering they have the most powerful military in the region (and one of the most powerful in the world). Not only that, but they are backed by the US.
 
Kilo_302 said:
All the Palestinians want is a return to the pre-1967 borders, or 22% of their original land.

And how did those borders get created?  Let's see, first in 1948 (after the UN's ideas appear to have been rejected by Arab "neighbours"), then in 1967, when ISR, on being attacked, won the space, in many peoples' eyes, fair and square from nations which, as others have said, would be happy to not see ISR around anymore.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Even including all those figures, the air strikes of the last few weeks are a disgrace, and I think that was Fisk's point. He also clearly stated that he has covered atrocities committed by the forces of many nations in the Middle East, and condemns them all. His slight transgression here is no where near the outright lies we get from the Israeli government and much of our media. Many of us who are critical of Israel DO NOT condone Hamas or any other group that targets civilians. I also do not forget that Israel has been the target of terrorism. When I say that Israel is not concerned over the safety of its citizens, I mean that rather than get to the root of the problem (the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories) they "treat" the problem with security measures. All the Palestinians want is a return to the pre-1967 borders, or 22% of their original land. You can argue with the tactics that they have used, but when pushed into a corner, people do desperate and often evil things. Israel however, is not in a corner.

And that is exactly the problem which brings us right back to history circa 1949 and the actions of western nations in bringing about "Israel". The Israeli's didn't do this ... we did it for them. And in the birth of their nation, we conveniently "neglected" those Palenstinians who would be displaced from their homeland while making it the Israeli's. A sanctionned event - internationally. "Occupied" goes back to '49 ... if you happen to be Palestinian. 

Until that is corrected - nothing will change.
 
Interesting how the media reports all dead as civilians when the fact is most of the dead are Hamas. No question that women and children have died but thats why hamas launches their rockets from populated areas. Prior to bombing buildings the Israelis would call and tell everyone to get out. Hamas would then move the women and children to the roof. The Israelis have a non leathal bomb they drop that is designed to scare the civilians away and then they follow up with a bomb. Hamas wants civilian casualties. The Israelis cant stop this operation now that they are in Gaza,they must take full control and ferret out the concealed rockets/launchers - only then can the status of Gaza be decided. Anything less will allow Hamas to rebuild/rearm and they will be even more dangerous in the future.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Interesting how the media reports all dead as civilians when the fact is most of the dead are Hamas. No question that women and children have died but thats why hamas launches their rockets from populated areas. Prior to bombing buildings the Israelis would call and tell everyone to get out. Hamas would then move the women and children to the roof. The Israelis have a non leathal bomb they drop that is designed to scare the civilians away and then they follow up with a bomb. Hamas wants civilian casualties. The Israelis cant stop this operation now that they are in Gaza,they must take full control and ferret out the concealed rockets/launchers - only then can the status of Gaza be decided. Anything less will allow Hamas to rebuild/rearm and they will be even more dangerous in the future.

Try telling that to the Press.  Even that LIVE.LEAK footage of the Armed Hamas fighters jumping into the back of a UN ambulance hasn`t been found to be incriminating by the MSM.
 
The media are infested with leftists and pro-palestinian stringers. Remember the images from Lebanon ? Hizbollah supporters in the press faked photos of dead children and photo shopped damage to make Israel look bad. Look at our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan the media dutifully reported every crazy accusation as fact. Every air strike kills "civilians". The MSM has no credibility.

CNN has pulled this video because it appears to be fake. Not even considering the cameraman was shooting his little brother. Post from Little Green Footballs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pRu-sRPb0&eurl

LGF reader “Last Mohican,” a doctor, makes a strong case that this is an obvious fake.

I’m no military expert, but I am a doctor, and this video is bullsh-t. The chest compressions that were being performed at the beginning of this video were absolutely, positively fake. The large man in the white coat was NOT performing CPR on that child. He was just sort of tapping on the child’s sternum a little bit with his fingers. You can’t make blood flow like that. Furthermore, there’s no point in doing chest compressions if you’re not also ventilating the patient somehow. In this video, I can’t tell for sure if the patient has an endotracheal tube in place, but you can see that there is nobody bag-ventilating him (a bag is actually hanging by the head of the bed), and there is no ventilator attached to the patient. In a hospital, during a code on a ventilated patient, somebody would probably be bagging the patient during the chest compressions. And they also would have moved the bed away from the wall, so that somebody could get back there to intubate the patient and/or bag him. In short, the “resuscitation scene” at the beginning is fake, and it’s a pretty lame fake at that.

So the question is, were they re-enacting the resuscitation scene by repeating their actions on a corpse, because the child had died earlier? It’s likely that the answer is no, that child is still alive, and is just an actor pretending to be a child who was killed. Why do I say that? Because the big guy in the white coat, if he’s really a doctor, nurse, nurse’s aid, EMT, or any sort of health care provider at all would be entirely aware that tickling the boy’s sternum doesn’t really look like actual chest compressions. If the boy was dead, the man would have done a more convincing job in compressing the chest. The taps on the chest that he’s doing are the sort of thing you see in bad TV dramas, when you don’t want to make the poor actor playing the victim uncomfortable by really pushing on his chest. I think the man in the white coat knows this child is actually alive, and is making the simulated chest compressions gentle so as not to hurt the child. My guess is that he assumed the videographer, like those on better TV shows, would have been smart enough not to film as far down as the man’s hands on the chest.

 
You might be right (I'm not a doctor), but  no one here is saying that Hamas has not played civilian casualties to their advantage. I believe I mentioned this fact myself in an earlier post. What we ARE saying is that this level of civilian casualties is unacceptable by any measure, regardless of where Hamas is firing their rockets from. I am more concerned with the overall situation than with the optics of certain situations (faked or exploited or otherwise). The cynic in me realizes that all parties involved have political agendas that often trump moral or humanitarian issues. But the deaths remain. I just think that rather than blaming Hamas exclusively, we should realize that this is a complex issue in which both parties ( though I will admit I believe Israel's occupation is primarily to blame) are guilty of atrocities, and scale DOES matter.
 
Shec said:
Why are there so few Israeli casualties in comparison with the Palestinian death toll?  It's because Israel's first priority is the safety of its citizens, which is why there are shelters and warning systems in Israeli towns.   If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can certainly build shelters. Instead, it prefers to use women and children as human shields while its leaders rush into hiding.

Shec, it could be the disparity in the type of weaponry each side is using, no? If Hamas had F-16's, self prop arty, Merkavas, etc., perhaps the death toll on the Israeli side would be higher.

But that's not really the question to ask, rather: why should the Palestinians or the Israelis need to build bomb shelters for their people?

And, an evil man once said "repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth". Do you really believe that the Palestinians, Hamas, Hizballah, et. al. really don't love their children or women? Do you really believe that a man would shield himself with his child? Do we in the West, or Israel, have a monopoly on love for family? Do you have children, Shec...

Regards.
 
Kilo_302 said:
I just think that rather than blaming Hamas exclusively, we should realize that this is a complex issue in which both parties ( though I will admit I believe Israel's occupation is primarily to blame) are guilty of atrocities, and scale DOES matter.
For there to be any talks of a ceasefire, there has to be a willingness to TALK.
Hamas has steadfastly refused to sit down & talk to Israel.  Hell, their view is that Israel has no right to exist and that the Jews should be pushed back into the sea.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel because of the occupied lands
Israel fires bombs, missiles AND rockets into Gaza because Hamas has been firing rockets...

Hamas' intransigence is the direct root cause of the current situation.
Israel's creeping settlement of Palestinian lands (aka their promissed land) is the indirect cause.

Both sides have contributed to the situation...
NOW
Who will contribute to resolving the situation.... ???

Hamas won't do it - of their own free will.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Interesting how the media reports all dead as civilians when the fact is most of the dead are Hamas. No question that women and children have died but thats why hamas launches their rockets from populated areas. Prior to bombing buildings the Israelis would call and tell everyone to get out. Hamas would then move the women and children to the roof. The Israelis have a non leathal bomb they drop that is designed to scare the civilians away and then they follow up with a bomb. Hamas wants civilian casualties. The Israelis cant stop this operation now that they are in Gaza,they must take full control and ferret out the concealed rockets/launchers - only then can the status of Gaza be decided. Anything less will allow Hamas to rebuild/rearm and they will be even more dangerous in the future.

How could you possibly know this as fact?

Regards.
 
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