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Israel (IDF) versus Gaza aid ships- updates

Now I'm not navy but explain to me. If I owned the waters would I not then in theory own the ports? Why would I blockade my own ports? You would only Blockade enemy ports which would be in their waters. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how it logically works out in my mind.
 
DexOlesa said:
Now I'm not navy but explain to me. If I owned the waters would I not then in theory own the ports? Why would I blockade my own ports? You would only Blockade enemy ports which would be in their waters. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how it logically works out in my mind.

Gaza and West Bank are not part of Israel anymore, remember.
 
A blockade in time of war is standard operating procedure.  Perhaps the Hamas leadership of Gaza might want to quit continuously issuing statements that they are at war with Israel.  It isn't odd that Israel believes them

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/hamas-pm-ismail-haniyeh-at-war-with-israel-ndash-and-his-own-rivals-14127769.html
 
jollyjacktar said:
It also is all about optics.  The use of force and what can appear to be minimal to one person can appear to be excessive to another.  And that is why I believe what  I have seen so far has been edited to some degree as each side tries to get it's message out.

Now that's very interesting, just how do you edit a video which doesent show any offering of resistance or violence to one that does. ?????

Cheers.
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Gaza and West Bank are not part of Israel anymore, remember.

Sorry what I meant was Bdave asking if Israel owned Palestinian waters cause if they didn't the blockade would be illegal. I was saying you only have blockades in waters that weren't yours why would you blockade your own waters.
 
Interesting points about the international rules of the sea.  I know very little about them, and the only recent example that comes to mind isn't that recent: the Falklands War.  As I recall, the UK declared a zone of "x" around the Falklands.  The area in question in that case was in dispute, but in this case, it "appears" as though some decided to "break the blockade" and thus put Israel in a very interesting and difficult situation.  If they allowed it through, then they lose.  If they do what they did: they lose.  Short term, anyway. 

Now, as an aside, I saw someone inferring that bdave opposes Isreal.  I must highlight the fact that he was quite clear in stating that he was playing devil's advocate, and in so doing, has raised some good points, so I ask my fellow posters here to follow his example and keep this civil.
 
Here's a little more info from Israeli-Canadian perspective.

The Gaza Flotilla Confrontation: A Canada Israel Committee Perspective

http://www.jewishtoronto.com/blog_post.aspx?id=1995

In the early hours of Monday morning, the Israeli Defense Forces prevented a group of ships from attempting to reach Gaza. The ships, with several hundred activists and supplies had refused Israeli offers to offload the goods at Ashkelon for transfer to Gaza following appropriate security clearance. One ship, sponsored by a terrorist Turkish organization known as IHH, was the site of violence when Israeli soldiers were attacked as they boarded the ship. The IHH has a long history of cooperation with Islamic terrorists. As a result of this violence, 10 individuals were reportedly killed and several IDF soldiers were wounded. Here are some facts about this tragic incident, provided by Canada Israel committee.

1. Israeli sailors, attempting to board one of the six ships of the protest flotilla en route to Gaza, were attacked by dozens of activists armed with knives, metal bars, and handguns. Fearing for their lives, the Israeli soldiers had no choice but to respond. At least four Israeli personnel were wounded by various means, including by gunfire from activists.

2. Israel made every effort to provide the flotilla organizers with an opportunity to avoid a confrontation. Israel offered to bring the flotilla into the port of Ashdod, and to transfer their aid to Gaza following appropriate security checks. The organizers rejected this offer, stating clearly that "this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege." (Greta Berlin, AFP, 27 May 10).

3. Israel gave repeated warning of the maritime blockade in effect off the coast of Gaza and that the flotilla would be turned away and brought to an Israeli port to offload their cargo.

4. The organizers of the protest deliberately invited a confrontation with Israeli sailors. This was not an aid mission, but a PR stunt designed to undermine Israel and bolster Hamas, internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Among the protestors were a group of highly-trained extremists with links to the Muslim Brotherhood and jihadist groups in Afghanistan.

5. There is no blockade on humanitarian aid to Gaza. In fact, Israel delivers 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid - including medical supplies, food, and water - to Gaza every week. The blockade exists to prevent unauthorized individuals and unknown cargo from entering Gaza and falling into the hands of its ruling Hamas regime.

6. Hamas is presently smuggling in massive amounts of military supplies into Gaza to fortify its positions and continue its attacks. Under international law Israel has the right to intercept vehicles that are "believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture." (Section 67A of the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea).

To view the warning issued by the Israel Defense Forces and the situation faced by Israeli soldiers, please click here
http://jerusalem2day.posterous.com/using-web-20-during-flotilla

To view video of flotilla participants expressing their wish for martyrdom please click here http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2489.htm

For information on protests within Israel, please see below.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177051

For the current status of the flotilla
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896996,00.html
 
FastEddy said:
Now that's very interesting, just how do you edit a video which doesent show any offering of resistance or violence to one that does. ?????

Cheers.

What I mean by editing is that they may not be showing the entire run of the video feed.  If you remember the Wikileak thread discussed elsewhere showing the engagement in Iraq between the Apache and the Insurgents that had Reporters embedded with them.  There was a short version, and later a much longer version on the net.  The longer version gave more information and could allow one to make a more informed decision on events.

The video I had viewed at the time of my original post from the Blockade runner side was spotty at best and did not show any bits of the resistance from the passengers that the IDF video was showing. 
 
jollyjacktar said:
What I mean by editing is that they may not be showing the entire run of the video feed.  If you remember the Wikileak thread discussed elsewhere showing the engagement in Iraq between the Apache and the Insurgents that had Reporters embedded with them.  There was a short version, and later a much longer version on the net.  The longer version gave more information and could allow one to make a more informed decision on events.

The video I had viewed at the time of my original post from the Blockade runner side was spotty at best and did not show any bits of the resistance from the passengers that the IDF video was showing.  Whereas the IDF video was short in duration, was from one perspective (above FLIR) and was showing particular points of danger to their personnel.  ie. the Commando that was hit with what appears to be a metal pole, etc etc etc.

Much later in the evening on another web site, there was shots from one of the small Israeli boats along side.  It gave different views an information.
 
Discussing this with someone, this is what they told me:

1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.

While I don't agree with the way Israel treats Palestine, I  now complete understand and agree that Israel was legally justified in what they did. Bolded the parts that really made it clear.
 
While I don't agree with the way Israel treats Palestine, I  now complete understand and agree that Israel was legally justified in what they did. Bolded the parts that really made it clear.

And that is how using verifyable fact, as opposed to rumour and opinion, works folks.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
This from Reuters:
Wrong intelligence, wrong equipment, wrong tactics. Israel's military acknowledged big mistakes on Tuesday in the bungled boarding of a Gaza-bound aid ship in which elite troops killed nine international activists.

(....)

Marine commandos involved in the attack pointed to a failure of intelligence.

"We did not expect such resistance from the group's activists as we were talking about a humanitarian aid group," the boarding party's commander, an unnamed naval lieutenant who received special permission to be interviewed, told Army Radio.

"The outcome was different to what we thought, but I must say that this was mainly because of the inappropriate behaviour of the adversary we encountered."

Though Israel's police quarantine of activists from the Mavi Marmara prevented the airing of dissenting testimony, a video clip filmed by one of the passengers as the converted cruise ship was stormed showed two marines being clubbed and stabbed.

The Israeli military also released night-vision footage of a half-dozen commandos grappling with as many as 30 activists.

(....)

Some of the troops wielded paintball rifles — non-lethal weapons designed to bruise, beat back and mark suspects for later arrest, but which apparently proved of limited use against activists who had the protection of life-jackets and gas masks.

"It's clear that the equipment for crowd-dispersal with which they were issued was insufficient," Israel's armed forces chief, Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi, told reporters.

There was little question of calling off the raid once the first Israelis were in the fight and vulnerable, though the navy said some commandos opted to escape by jumping overboard.

Israel said seven marines were injured, one after activists threw him over a railing and two from gunshot wounds, possibly from sidearms that were wrested from them.

"A number of the fighters who understood the situation, the threat posed to their lives, reoriented themselves and simply worked with live (ammunition) weapons as soon as they came down," the marines lieutenant said.

Some experts questioned whether a police anti-riot unit might have tackled the resistance with less bloodshed.

But an Israeli defence official said only marines were capable of the takeover 120 km (75 miles) in the choppy Mediterranean, timed for darkness to surprise the activists and deprive attendant journalists of spectacular pictures.

Barak's deputy, Matan Vilnai, brushed off the demand in the best-selling Yedioth Ahronoth daily that the defence minister resign. He hinted Israel had exhausted covert means of stalling the Mavi Marmara and five other vessels in a flotilla that sailed for Gaza in defiance of an Israeli campaign to isolate the Hamas movement that controls the territory.

"Everything was considered. I don't want to elaborate beyond that, because the fact is there were not up to 10, or however many ships were (originally) planned," Vilnai told Israel Radio, alluding to rumours that some of the vessels had been sabotaged.

(....)

Alon Ben-David, defence correspondent for Israel's Channel 10 television, noted that video footage appears to show marines thwarted an attempt by activists to tie one of the rappelling ropes to the deck, a major threat to the hovering helicopter.

"The outcome could have been much worse," Ben-David said.
 
For your consideration, 3 articles from the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz, posted with the usual caveats.

These articles (opinions/blogs) deal more with the domestic political fallout of this latest IDF debacle, rather than the technical details of the operation itself.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/a-special-place-in-hell-the-second-gaza-war-israel-lost-at-sea-1.293246

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/seven-idiots-in-the-cabinet-1.293418


Enjoy.

Tourza
 
So, if this is true **:
.... Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences ....

and NATO's Sec-Gen is already talking about this:
Today the North Atlantic Council (NAC) met for an extraordinary meeting to discuss the recent Israeli operation against ships bound for Gaza. There was an extensive exchange of views among Allies on all aspects of this tragic event.

I would like to express my deep regret over the loss of lives and the other casualties resulting from the use of force during the incident involving the convoy sailing to Gaza. I offer sincere condolences to the families of all victims and condemn the acts which have led to this tragedy. I add my voice to the calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation into the incident.

As a matter of urgency, I also request the immediate release of the detained civilians and ships held by Israel.

how messy is it going to get if the Turkish Navy, indeed, send ships?

can%20of%20worms.jpg


** - can't find any other MSM references, so caveat lector
 
Ever heard the tale of the SS Exodus? It's an amazing story about stopping terrorists from reaching Palestine.  Deja vu!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus
http://www.humanitarianchronicle.com/2010/06/the-freedom-flotilla-and-the-exodus-revolving-history/
 
Canadian to be deported from Israel after raid

The family of a Canadian activist caught aboard a deadly protest flotilla has been told he will likely be deported home within hours.

But it doesn’t mean he won’t return to the same cause and another challenge to Israel’s blockade of Gaza.

Steve Neish, older brother to Kevin Neish — a 53-year-old retired engineer and pro-Palestinian activist from Victoria, B.C. — says his sibling’s daughter has been told he’s OK and soon headed home.

“He’ll be deported within 72 hours, so we know he’s safe,” Steve Neish told QMI Agency.

Neish was on a Gaza-bound flotilla when it was stormed by Israeli commandos. Nine people were killed during the raid that has touched off a firestorm of protest and debate around the globe.

All the activists were taken off the boats Monday, and many who identified themselves were reportedly given the option of deportation or jail.

Foreign affairs have confirmed there are three Canadians who were detained after the flotilla was stopped.

More on link
 
Wow aren't you smart....

Ever fast rope, let alone fast rope into a confined space that is moving while your platfrom is moving as well yeah I didn't think so

Do you have somthing useful to add or are you done now.

Those Commandos did the job they were trained and ordered to do good on them.


EDIT: Clarity
 
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