Israel (IDF) versus Gaza aid ships- updates

[SupersonicMax]

BM:  Good for you, you did it.  You rock.  Now, let's work on that sense of humour...

winnipegoo7:  I tought it was funny.

 

[HItorMiss]

NO I never said I have done it, but I do not find the concept of mocking those who have done it because they did what was ordered of them amusing.

I not only imagine that it takes a great amount of skill but courage to not only get on that rope but see what you are sliding into...

Call me funny that way


On that note I will bow out of this argument as it does not serve the discussion at hand. I will say that the image would be funny in a different context but in one where soldiers where hurt doing their job is not.

Edit: Clairity again stupid old key board

 

[Retired AF Guy]

bdave

Reference your earlier post from the news agency IBN about the Turkish Navy escorting humanitarian ships to Gaza. Prior to this post I had never heard of IBN, but found this at wikipedia:

Cable News Network-Indian Broadcasting Network (CNN-IBN) is an English-language Indian TV news channel. The network is a partnership between Global Broadcast News (GBN) and Turner International (Turner) in India (a subsidiary of Time Warner). Rajdeep Sardesai is the Editor-in-Chief of the network. The Indian company GBN runs the channel completely but uses the CNN brand name, in return gave 26% stake to Time Warner.

As for the actual report, here are links to two reports from the Turkish Daily News on Turkish responses to the incident:

Turkey launches long-term diplomatic war against Israel

Turkish PM Erdoğan calls on world to punish Israel over deadly attack

Neither report makes any mention of the Turkish military getting involved in any future blockade running and while the Turks are royally pissed-off at Israel, the Turks are calling for diplomatic action against Israel not military.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I will say that the image would be funny in a different context but in one where soldiers where hurt doing their job is not.

Bang on - I've commented on a few blogs that this is not exactly classy when troops were injured.  Then again, when the blog gives the cartoon the title "Fast Rope 101", was there any point to my including my comment?  One tries...

.... Turkey launches long-term diplomatic war against Israel

Turkish PM Erdoğan calls on world to punish Israel over deadly attack

Neither report makes any mention of the Turkish military getting involved in any future blockade running and while the Turks are royally pissed-off at Israel, the Turks are calling for diplomatic action against Israel not military.

I'd never heard of same, either, and no other Turkish MSM I could find in English had the reference, hence the caveats.  Thanks for this.

 

[tomahawk6]

The wild card in this drama is Turkey. They are working against the interests of the west while advancing an islamist ideology. Turkish warships might be used as escorts the next time. What happens if Israel attacks Turkish warships or vice versa ? I think the time is fast approaching to expel Turkey from NATO or we get lucky and the Turkish Army moves against the islmaist government.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The wild card in this drama is Turkey. They are working against the interests of the west while advancing an islamist ideology. Turkish warships might be used as escorts the next time. What happens if Israel attacks Turkish warships or vice versa ? I think the time is fast approaching to expel Turkey from NATO or we get lucky and the Turkish Army moves against the islmaist government.

There's some bloggers/commentators out there going as far as saying it's time for Obama to choose:  support Turkey/NATO, or support Israel.

 

[Infanteer]

What happens if Israel attacks Turkish warships or vice versa ? I think the time is fast approaching to expel Turkey from NATO or we get lucky and the Turkish Army moves against the islmaist government.

Israeli statesman can say, at the end of the day, that "we are still here".  That is a pretty powerful sentiment that can justify many things.  Unlike us, Israel only has to lose one.

However....

I'd rather leave Turkey and Israel to their own devices if it came to this scenario.  2010 is much different than 1956, and the strategic situation is such that I don't find the "national survival" argument as pressing at this time.

 

[Journeyman]

Israeli statesman can say, at the end of the day, that "we are still here".  That is a pretty powerful sentiment that can justify many things.  Unlike us, Israel only has to lose one.

Good call. If you're living at ground zero, it tends to focus the mind and perhaps you care even less about the UN calling for "a transparent and impartial examination of the events." Since Israel has been facilitating 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid weekly, the flotilla's intent was obvious.

Quoting SS Exodus is interesting, but only because most [limited] knowledge comes from Leon Uris' book, which wasn't quite correct. The bottom line though, is that for most of the 1947 world, no one cared about the Palestine issue so public opinion was won by whoever generated the most powerful images; at the time, it was Israel.

What's different today? I mean, besides even less-informed mouth breathers getting to post on CBC.ca

My guess?
1) The situation was ripe for this action because President Obama has been adamant that he's seeking "consensus" on any political/military deployments -- the "global sheriff" is gone. The one place on the planet you'll never get consensus is the Middle East. As long as the US is (rightfully?) saying "piss off world; we're tired of your ingratitude for hauling your bacon out of the German/Nazi/N.Korean/Communist fires," this particular event will be a recurring theme.

2) Tied in with this, NATO credibility is shaky enough with A'stan. There's no way anyone is going to bitch-slap Turkey -- our only "Muslim" member. This gives Turkey a perfect opportunity to take an increasingly sought leadership role in the "non-Islamist" Muslim world. The only other competitor is Egypt. Turkey has had pretty close ties with Israel recently, but I suspect that most of them were through the military. This gives the Ankara government an opportunity (if not public-relations obligation) for further distance.

3) On a minor note (did anyone think I'd pass an opportunity to slap the "League of Nations 2"?  ;D By launching this flotilla, and any follow-on's, through northern Cyprus, Turkey can demonstrate that they do indeed own the northern half of Cyprus despite the UN's most concerted efforts since 1964.  :
And if things go horribly, horribly wrong, they can say "hey, it was the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, not us."

In the end, the flotilla's aims of dividing Israeli internal, and Western governments', public opinion is working quite well. Some days it pays to be a political realist.


ps - Bulletmagnet, check PMs

 

[tomahawk6]

Now there is an interesting term "political realist". But whose reality ? The reality is that Israel is beset by enemies along its borders. The enemies of Israel extend throughout the muslim world and into Europe,Canada and the US. The pro-palestinian front is anti-semitic and range from leftists to islamists. Strange bedfellows indeed. The destruction of the state of Israel will be the 21st century version of the holocaust pure and simple. The Iranians may feel the time is ripe with an ineffectual Obama administration to strike at Israel. Obama already displays a strong anti-Israeli bent. If Israel is attacked they can expect no aid from the US or anyone else. Countdown to Armageddon anyone ?

Saw this quote from Ehud Barak Israel's Defense Minister.

"We live in the Middle East, in a place where there is no mercy for the weak and there aren't second chances for those who don't defend themselves."

 

[Journeyman]

Now there is an interesting term "political realist". But whose reality ?

Realism, in the international relations' sense, emphasizes national interest over moral concerns or social niceties. I'd say this event demonstrates Turkey's "reality." At the end of the day (or even the End of Days ), there is no chance Israel will 'go gentle into that good night.'

I did enjoy the street theatre of watching Erdogan's public shock and disbelief at the inevitable result of Turkey's own actions. And it's a nice break from CBC reporting vacuous opinion polls as "news."
op:

 

[The Bread Guy]

...in addition to the San Remo agreement material posted earlier here, courtesy of Reuters - highlights mine:

....  CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defence after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

OPPONENTS HAVE CALLED ISRAEL'S RAID "PIRACY". WAS IT?

No, as under international law it was considered a state action.

"Whether what Israel did is right or wrong, it is not an act of piracy. Piracy deals with private conduct particularly with a pecuniary or financial interest," Kraska said ....

 

[time expired]

The SS Exodus was a shipload of Jewish refugees most of whom were survivors of Nazi death camps. The
British leftist government decided they would be better off in British concentration camps on Cyprus,the
refugees decided otherwise and some realised that while they had made a huge mistake in not resisting
the Nazis and were not going to make the same mistake again and joined one of the various Jewish
resistance groups.

I feel the Turks have an agenda here,after being rebuffed in their attempt to get into the EU,and given
the muslimist bent of the  of the present government,this is an attempt to rid themselves of their
Jewish connections move towards the Arab block and take a leading role there.I am not sure this is a
good move for them as many Arabs still remember the late not great Ottoman empire.I am also not
sure the military will stand still for this new direction.

Here in Europe the left wing MSM were foaming at the mouth over the evil Israelis,today they have
calmed down somewhat however if this called for UN sponsored  "independent"investigation does not
roundly blame and condemn Israel then it will be called a whitewash and will not be believed.But I am
sure the UN will oblige and back up the left and the Arab street mobs.

                                                  Regards

 

[LineDoggie]

Ever heard the tale of the SS Exodus? It's an amazing story about stopping terrorists from reaching Palestine.  Deja vu!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus
http://www.humanitarianchronicle.com/2010/06/the-freedom-flotilla-and-the-exodus-revolving-history/

Terrorists?

 

[winnipegoo7]

I meant it sarcastically, but 'terrorist' is all in your point of view.  I think the people on the Exodus and the people on the Mavi Marmara have a lot in common.

The SS Exodus voyage was a plan of the Haganah, which I'm sure many old British soldiers would call a terrorist organisation.  (and I would bet that Hamas had it's role in the Mavi Marmara incident)

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I meant it sarcastically, but 'terrorist' is all in your point of view.  I think the people on the Exodus and the people on the Mavi Marmara have a lot in common.

The SS Exodus voyage was a plan of the Haganah, which I'm sure many old British soldiers would call a terrorist organisation.  (and I would bet that Hamas had it's role in the Mavi Marmara incident)

The British considered the Haganah terrorists but they were the nice guys.  Note that while the Exodist succeeded in the movie, it failed in the real world.

We've spent the last 90 years dealing with the after-effects of WWI.  The occupation of the middle east by France and the UK and the encouragement of Jewish settlement in Palestine were mistakes but Israel is a current reality and they're not going away.

 

[time expired]

The  Mari Marmara seems to have been crewed by a mix of middle class,left wing idiots with a smattering
of pro Hamas thugs.The Exodus was crewed by people fleeing a Europe that either actively tried to wipe
them out or really didn`t give a damn one way or an other..

the British tried to insure that very few refugees, and no weapons, got to the jews in the belief that on the
inevitable declaration of a Jewish  State, the Arabs would wipe this new State off the face of the earth.The
British could then forget their promise to the Jews to partition Palestine and form a Jewish State and carry
on currying favour with the Arabs.
 

Winnipegoo I see your comparison as being very tenuous at best.

                                                       

 

[bdave]

The pro-palestinian front is anti-semitic.

No.
Some people just don't like the condition the Palestinians are currently in, and how the Israeli treat them.
Anti-Jew? Hardly.

 

[jollyjacktar]

No.
Some people just don't like the condition the Palestinians are currently in, and how the Israeli treat them.
Anti-Jew? Hardly.

I work with a number of folks who believe this.  It is the policies of the Israeli Gov't they disagree with, I don't hear anti-semitism coming from them.  To be sure there are those who are anti-semitic amongst the pro-Palestinian supporters, but it's not all of them.

 

[tomahawk6]

The rhetoric sure has me fooled. The Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves. They have chosen conflict over jobs. Their leaders plot Israels demise. Its absurd to think that the leftists just hate the Israeli government but their actions imperil the lives of all jews living in Israel. How much does Israel have to give up to get peace ?

Just your average tolerant pro-palestinian supporters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature

 

[jollyjacktar]

There will be hard line folks on both sides of the fence, I agree.  But there are also I am sure many folks on both sides who just want to live and let live too.  Northern Ireland is a perfect example in that the common folks got tired of all the troubles and it shut most of the hard men down.  Won't be easy I know,  but maybe someday it may come.