Islam and Western Society

[AbdullahD]

Not to put too fine a point to it, but in Canada it would actually be considered a violation of the Human Rights code to question anyone's "self identification", much less attempt to rely on objective evidence, scientific observations etc. to dispute their "self identification". Despite the fact you see a penis, can demonstrate an x-y chromosome and authentic sexual responses when a picture of a naked woman is displayed, if the person in front of you declares they are a woman, by gum you will treat them as a woman, open the woman's rest room and not bat an eye or the Human Rights Kangaroo court will come down and render a very real decision against you (backed by the courts).

The same sorts of arguments are in force when trying to discuss religion, philosophy or even politics in the post modern West. In many ways I actually agree with you -you are not "x" just because you say you are - but that isn't going to wash in academia, the media or the courts these days.

OTOH, if you are going to loudly proclaim you are a follower of a certain belief system and that belief system compells you to do certain things, then it is difficult to dispute that you are indeed a follower of that system, particularly when you are not just "one of one". Tens of thousands of people streaming into the self proclaimed Caliphate to follow "authentic" Islamic treachings are certainly not a good argument to say "they are not Muslims". They certainly consider themselves devout Muslims, and as noted upthread, would violently attack you as an apostate (along with followers of the Shiite and Sufi branches of Islam).

Thucydides

I honestly did not know that about the human rights courts in Canada, Thank you for enlightening me. That does complicate the problem, not being able to use that tack could be problematic  (albeit ill doubt anyone will cry to loudly calling extremists kafr). Albeit it will protect shias, sufis etc nicely.

btw this hate they have for Sufi's, confounds me because the ideology Sufi's follow is actually obligatory for all Muslims to follow. They simply try to ignore their earthly desires to get closer to God and we are told to do that by our prophet to whatever extent we can.

Yea, us "normal" Muslims have an uphill battle to fight by an opponent that seemingly has us out flanked, out gunned and out manned. I'll keep banging my head against the wall and who knows maybe one day it will come down.

Thanks for your knowledge. Now im back to the drawing board I think.

Abdullah

 

[Rick Goebel]

Just a point on someone telling you that you are no longer a Christian/Muslim.

Nobody can tell a Christian he is no longer a Christian.  Even in the highly hierarchical Roman Catholic church, excommunication means that a person will be denied the sacraments.  An excommunicated Roman Catholic is still a Roman Catholic and still has a duty to attend mass but cannot receive the sacrament.  In fact, while change has recently been discussed, it at least recently was Roman Catholic policy to deny communion to divorced and civilly remarried people.  These people have always been encouraged to still attend church.

Islam may be different but I don't know.

 

[CougarKing]

Meanwhile, in Australia...

Australia Channel 7 News

Islamist fundamentalist group Hizb ut-Tahrir found guilty of gender discrimination

    Bryan Seymour
    March 4, 2016, 6:52 pm

A Radical Muslim group has been found guilty of discriminating against women after making them sit at the back of public meetings.

The landmark finding came after a Sydney woman took on the global political party Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The group will now be forced to mend their ways.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[CougarKing]

This comes after Syrian refugees were pepper-sprayed in Vancouver late last year:

Vancity Buzz

Islamophobia hotline launches in Vancouver
BY
VANCITY BUZZ STAFF
1:57 PM PST, WED MARCH 09, 2016

A free and confidential Islamophobia Legal Assistance Hotline was launched today by Vancouver’s legal community.

“Islamophobia can be experienced in many different ways,” said Sarah Khan, staff lawyer at the B.C. Public Interest Advocacy Centre in a press release. “We have heard reports of harassment, violent attacks, racial profiling, property destruction and threats from across the country. Islamophobia affects everyday Canadians as they go about their lives, their schooling and their work. As a legal community, it is our duty to pull together and ensure that people who affected by this racism are able to protect their rights.”

The hotline will be run by the Access Pro Bono Society of BC, a non-profit organization that assists individuals of limited means to obtain free legal services.


“We want to help empower people to respond to this discrimination by making legal support more easily available,” said Aleem Bharmal, Executive Director of the Community Legal Assistance Society. “Many people who experience this sort of discrimination may not even know that there might be legal options available to respond… We want to make sure people can get the advice that they need.”

The hotline has been set up just months after Syrian refugees were pepper sprayed at a welcome event in Vancouver, and the team behind the hotline says that they will be documenting calls to better understand the scope of the problem in British Columbia.

The hotline number is 604-343-3828 and you can also find out more at islamophobiahotline.ca.

 

[PuckChaser]

But yet the barbaric practices hotline was silly? There's a good way to handle both incidents, call the police.

 

[AbdullahD]

But yet the barbaric practices hotline was silly? There's a good way to handle both incidents, call the police.

It is interesting, I disagree with both hotlines. One because it seemed to target minorites and the other because it is exclusive.

I honestly shake my head at the short sighted views people have. This hotline MAY give benefit to Muslims, who are suffering from legitimate problems of Rascism etc. But in the long term it will create divisions between peoples, Why on earth didnt they market it for all peoples suffering from Rascism, antisemitism and Islamophobia etc... Instead they have now given ammo to people who wish to ostracize Muslims.

I wish they would have created a Harassment HotLine, something were Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians ETC could use if they were having problems. Sure, have Muslims make it, but market it to the other ethnic, religious and social groups. That way all these minorites could realize Muslims wish to help too.

If they were really wise, they could have given it a psuedo Islamic sounding name to normalize Islam within society so people dont get scared hearing Islamic sounding names. Because I hate to say it, a lot of people fear what they dont know.

But alas in my opinion this thing that does some small good for the Muslim community, may end up hurting Muslims more then it helps and I believe in my opinion only it was a wasted opportunity to do a greater good and help Islams reputation in Canada. But maybe I missed something and men wiser then I already considered and discarded this idea.

Abdullah

 

[George Wallace]

Here is an interesting video of Raheel Raza on the Bill Maher Show.  A brilliant lady.  She has authored a paper at the PEW Research Center on "The World's Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society". 

Video is full interview with the Canadian Muslim journalist Raheel Raza 'On Islam & Muslim Honour Killings' on the  Bill Maher Show of March 4th, 2016.

https://www.facebook.com/nevereveragainever/videos/573648132801385/

 

[ArmyRick]

That was a good video and I think it was spot on. It covers it from both sides,  one lets not lump all Muslims as evil terrorist (that is bigotry) but also asks tough questions of the Islamic world to acknowledge the terrorism being done in it's name and maybe time for modern reformations.

 

[CougarKing]

Even though the Sultan of Brunei has put a ban on Christmas in his country, some of Brunei's laws on women are pretty tame compared to Saudi Arabia:

Yahoo Daily Buzz

All-female crew makes landing in country that forbids women from driving
[The Daily Buzz]

March 14, 2016

An all-female flight crew recently landed a plane in Saudi Arabia — a country that forbids women from driving.

The flight took place on Feb. 23 and was operated by Royal Brunei Airlines. At the helm were Captain Sharifah Czarena, Senior First Officer Sariana and Senior First Officer Dk Nadiah.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[CougarKing]

From last week:

Inside Edition/Yahoo News

Arab-American Family Outraged After Getting Kicked Off Flight

Inside Edition
April 2, 2016

A Muslim family from Chicago was outraged recently after they say they were forced off a United Airlines flight for "safety reasons."

Eaman-Amy Saad Shebley took her anger to social media, where she reportedly posted video of a flight attendant asking her, her husband and three kids to deplane for no apparent reason.

The incident occurred after Shebley asked a flight attendant about five-point harnesses for the kids, WDIV reports.

The flight attendant said she had no idea what the mother was talking about and the family was soon lead off the plane.

“Shame on you United Airlines for profiling my family for no reason than how we look," wrote Shebley, who wears a hijab. "My three kids are too young to have experienced this.”

The video can no longer be viewed on Facebook.

After getting off the plane, the family contacted customer service, who apologized and rebooked them on a new flight to Washington, DC. They also filed a complaint.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm going to go back to AbdullahD's earlier post where he talks about how it is easy to essentially bamboozle people into radicalism. While this may be true (poor and ignorant people often don't have the frames of reference to see beyond the immediate arguments), the drivers and followers of many of these radical movements are NOT poor and ignorant.

Osama Bin Laden was a wealthy man from a privileged family, and so are many of the other leaders of radical groups. The Saudi princes and Emirate sheiks who finance radical massadras and ISIS are, by any standard, fabulously privileged and wealthy. The suicide pilots from 9-11 were from generally "middle class" backgrounds, and self radicalizing people in the West are also often from middle class to privileged backgrounds. They most certainly proclaim and regard themselves as observant Muslims.

So my question is what in the teachings of Islam is attracting these people to the very intolerant and violent interpretations of the religion and texts?

I came across one explanation by an ex-muslim scholar: Basically Islam creates a superiority complex, coupled with an expectation of submission (only to allah and Muslims leaders). The Koran and hadiths are quite clear that the expectation is that the Muslim is on top and any other situation is temporary and needs to be fixed. So being ruled or led by a non-Muslim automatically is considered humiliating, even more so for the educated Muslim. The Submission angle allows the tribal/political/religious leaders a large amount of control over the uneducated Muslim and the combo allows them to feel humiliated and then easily stoked into angry outbreaks, such as rioting and lynching. Basically the mob becomes the "rownshirts" of the Islamic movement, controlled through friday prayers and sermons. It's this mob that keeps anyone from speaking out against the radical Imams. The real battle for Islam has taken place in the Mosques, the radical Sunni's from the Gulf have had a 30 year and 8 billion head start on the rest of the world.   

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Maybe we should hire PQ insiders hacks to help develop a strategy: They know all there is to know about everything being "automatically considered a humiliation".  ;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

A survey of some of the Muslims living in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532355/More-half-Muslims-want-gay-sex-outlawed-nearly-quarter-support-areas-UK-run-sharia-law.html?offset=300&max=100&jumpTo=comment-122192740#comment-122192740

 

[AbdullahD]

I came across one explanation by an ex-muslim scholar: Basically Islam creates a superiority complex, coupled with an expectation of submission (only to allah and Muslims leaders). The Koran and hadiths are quite clear that the expectation is that the Muslim is on top and any other situation is temporary and needs to be fixed. So being ruled or led by a non-Muslim automatically is considered humiliating, even more so for the educated Muslim. The Submission angle allows the tribal/political/religious leaders a large amount of control over the uneducated Muslim and the combo allows them to feel humiliated and then easily stoked into angry outbreaks, such as rioting and lynching. Basically the mob becomes the "rownshirts" of the Islamic movement, controlled through friday prayers and sermons. It's this mob that keeps anyone from speaking out against the radical Imams. The real battle for Islam has taken place in the Mosques, the radical Sunni's from the Gulf have had a 30 year and 8 billion head start on the rest of the world. 

I was reading something from Mufti Abu Layth I think it was and he was addressing this "superiority" complex we have as a nation. Ah good found it, ill quote it below. It was him addressing saudi's forcing football players to cut there hair on the side of the field. So many Ahadiths talk about how Muslims shouldn't think they are better then everyone else, but because some talk about how great Muslims are or this or that we forget all the other ones about how the most qualified people should get the positions and how we should be humble of respectful etc.

I personally think that until Muslims start following real Islam, these problems are just going to get a lot worse. So many people leave Islam or hate it because of cultural things, not religious things and it is sad.

gotta go but here it is.
Abdullah

[quote author=MuftiAbuLayth]You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried!!

To any who've wondered why Islam is being ridiculed the way it is...well, because those we've allowed to lead it...live in caves!!

'Nonesense, control-obsessions, double-standards, misogyny, tribalism, culturalism, insecurities,mental-retardation'...when will such behaviour subside?... i wonder!

I guess till the #VoiceOfReason becomes loud enough...we'll just have to enjoy the circus!

#WhenImamsHaveTheMentalAgeOf5!
#NoToControlFreakMonopoly
#WeNeedCommunitiesNotCaves![/quote]

 

[Remius]

A survey of some of the Muslims living in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532355/More-half-Muslims-want-gay-sex-outlawed-nearly-quarter-support-areas-UK-run-sharia-law.html?offset=300&max=100&jumpTo=comment-122192740#comment-122192740

I find it funny when we point to things like muslims opposing gay sex.  Until the 70's you could be arrested in Canada for that.  As well many of the Bible Belt states in the US are legislating discriminatory laws against homosexuals as we speak.  Even the CPC currently has policies that are considered anti-gay.

I don't think it is merely something that can be attributable to Muslims, rather more to those with more conservative mindsets.

Sharia law though, no thanks.

 

[mariomike]

I find it funny when we point to things like muslims opposing gay sex.  Until the 70's you could be arrested in Canada for that. 

1980's,

"Operation Soap was a raid by the Metropolitan Toronto Police against four gay bathhouses in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, which took place on February 5, 1981. More than three hundred men were arrested, the largest mass arrest in Canada since the 1970 October crisis, before the record was broken during the 2006 Stanley Cup Playoffs in Edmonton, Alberta."

References:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Soap#References

Toronto Star:
https://canadianhistorycomesout.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/3000_riot.jpg
"3,000 go on rampage in Metro riot."

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was reading something from Mufti Abu Layth I think it was and he was addressing this "superiority" complex we have as a nation. Ah good found it, ill quote it below. It was him addressing saudi's forcing football players to cut there hair on the side of the field. So many Ahadiths talk about how Muslims shouldn't think they are better then everyone else, but because some talk about how great Muslims are or this or that we forget all the other ones about how the most qualified people should get the positions and how we should be humble of respectful etc.

I personally think that until Muslims start following real Islam, these problems are just going to get a lot worse. So many people leave Islam or hate it because of cultural things, not religious things and it is sad.

gotta go but here it is.
Abdullah

The painful reality is that most of what goes on is in the Koran, Hadiths and body of law. The bible is no better. However the big difference is that the majority of Christians have moved on from literal interpretations and taken up a purely personal spiritual view. That can’t happen in Islam because Islam as practiced in any majority Islamic country is all about being in control of the physical realm. Until Islam lets go of the legal and state functions, these problems will persists. Since massive infrastructure and people are involved in creating physical control of people using Islam, it’s highly unlikely they will let it go without massive bloodshed.

 

[Loachman]

I find it funny when we point to things like muslims opposing gay sex.  Until the 70's you could be arrested in Canada for that.

"Sexual Deviancy" was an offence in the NDA in the 1970s and probably well beyond. I do not remember when it was removed.

I wish that "Dumb Insolence" would be returned, though - just because it's a fun-sounding charge.

 

[jollyjacktar]

SIU were still looking into that into the late 80's maybe early 90's. IIRC

 

[AbdullahD]

The painful reality is that most of what goes on is in the Koran, Hadiths and body of law. The bible is no better. However the big difference is that the majority of Christians have moved on from literal interpretations and taken up a purely personal spiritual view. That can’t happen in Islam because Islam as practiced in any majority Islamic country is all about being in control of the physical realm. Until Islam lets go of the legal and state functions, these problems will persists. Since massive infrastructure and people are involved in creating physical control of people using Islam, it’s highly unlikely they will let it go without massive bloodshed.

Well, I agree that Christianity has evolved, but Islam has regressed. If we were to practice the spirit of Islam like the sahaba did, it would be better... but instead we are literalist. I dont think Muslims need seperation of state and church, hmmm, that sounds wrong. What I mean is, Islam has a political side of it, that should be realized.. But, the way the political side is practiced today is wrong. Umar ra if I am not wrong appointed qualified politicians to lead the state side and qualified scholars to lead the religious side... Just because a person is a religious scholar doesnt mean he is an adept politician...

Anywho a cool read on how the Sahaba followed the Sharia.

http://www.myislaam.com/fiqh/istihsan/

Abdullah