Islam and Western Society

[Armymedic]

Any militant extremist, no matter what god they pray to, are my enemy.  :threat:

Period

 

[George Wallace]

Che

Thanks for all the calm insight into this matter.   It is a difficult topic to remain calm and that is the question I am asking.   Unfortunately you are one of the few who have spoken out against the radical fundamentalists who are reigning terror around the world.   Many moderates are living in fear, and fear reprisals if they do speak out.   I am worried that if the moderates don't speak up soon, in larger numbers, many other nations and religions will blindly condemn all and there may be dire consequences.

I think the question "should we get rid of Islam"

Gozonuts.....that was not the question of this topic.   The question is:

With the recent actions of extreme Islamic Fundamentalists around the world, in Iraq, Spain, Russia and many other places, and the fear of moderate Muslims to act against or voice opposition to the radicals, are the grounds for a 'Reverse Jihad' in the makings?

"Will the escalation of Terror by a radical few condemn a whole section of society to be ostracized and suffer retaliation world wide scale?   Does the moderates' silence further compound their problem?

Unless the moderates start turning in the 'Fanatics', are we headed for a major disruption of our societies?   Will we see Islam banned from nations other than those in the Middle East?

 

So far we are living in a very tolerant society here in Canada, but how long will we and the rest of the world "turn the other cheek" and refrain from invoking strict measures to curtail the spread of Violence?  Will we write new "Hate Laws" outlawing certain Sects?  Will we deport enmasse whole segments of our population?  What kind of speculation do you have of our future, if we don't stop the terror?

GW

 

[48Highlander]

So far we are living in a very tolerant society here in Canada, but how long will we and the rest of the world "turn the other cheek" and refrain from invoking strict measures to curtail the spread of Violence?  Will we write new "Hate Laws" outlawing certain Sects?  Will we deport enmasse whole segments of our population?  What kind of speculation do you have of our future, if we don't stop the terror?

I doubt any of that will happen.  We DO live in a very tolerant society.  Most of us are still outraged when mosques get vandalized or destroyed here in Toronto, and the police do treat it as a hate crime and deal with it accordingly.  The only way I could see Canadian attitudes and policy changing is if Muslim extremists decided to set up shop here in massive numbers, and began killing people on a daily basis.  If that happened, we might very well have to consider deporting "enmasse whole segments of our population".

 

[QORvanweert]

I believe that the problem does not lie in their religion as I might have come across earlier as saying but in their own comprehension thereof. Che is right when he said 'you will find what you look for in any religion' or something to that measure. Quite possibly the entire prospect of what I shall call 'innocent' terrorists (innocent meaning that they are acting in good faith to their teachings) could be eliminated by a better understanding of their own religion. People like Che are doing the right thing by educating their pupils?/students etc.. in Islam. The people that deserve to be exported/jailed/shot are those that twist the minds of their followers, these of course being the 'bloodied' terrorists. The fact that the media is extraordinarily biased certainly adds to the confusion. Ergo, the only way to solve the 'terrorist' problem is to have every mullah we can get preaching peace/rationalization/debating vs. violence. this would remove the religious factor of their platform. Once done their eventual capture and incarcaration * :threat:*  would see them proscecuted as criminals against mankind instead of martyrs for Islam.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I believe French Muslims just held a massive demonstration against the violence and murder of captives in Iraq and in support of the French journalists held captive there.

Economic development and the creation/re-creation of a "middle class" in the whole Arab world should be a keystone in the war against terrorism. It is far easier to recruit terrorists and suicide bombers from an uneducated, unemployed group with no hope or future. Waging war against an entire people/ race/ religion will only cause them to close ranks and lash out rationally or irrationally against threats both real and perceived.

Genocide is a crime that will never be justified.

 

[gozonuts]

Dear Che,

You stated    "I'm also sorry you think that the majority of Muslims do not oppose terrorism and that the terrorists wives and children are a good representation of what the majority of Muslims (You should take issue with the government over that, not Muslims)"  , I felt that my rant actually suggested that I did in fact take issue with my government. I must appologise for the stupid internet clip at the end of my post, it was in bad taste and surely not funny. I DO realise that all Muslims could not possibly be terrorists or support such a thing. Yes, it probably is the media that fails to show that Muslims do in fact speak out against extremism. I certainly don't buy into the widely held notion that only Muslims are terrorists either, in one of your posts you mentioned "IF you believe everything the media tells you, you're an idiot." Except when it comes time to blame the brown guy, then the only thing we know about the Middle east is what we see on CNN", sure, if all you watched was CNN or FOX! If you prefer the BBC, which I do, then you can get a completely different slant on things - CNN/FOX favours the Israely side, BBC is hyper-critical of Israel's 'defense' tactics. It is just hard to ignore  pictures of school children shot in the back while escaping their captors. Those images were still burning in my mind, I suppose I was just venting. I know this went way off topic, but my hat is off to you for speaking out against stereotypes and I suppose I stand corrected! I should have said "the extremist problem", certainly not "the Muslim problem".

 

[pbi]

Gozonuts: I suspect that we could draw up a similarly brutal list of other atrocities, with the final notation being "Irish Catholics between the ages of 17 and 40". If we apply your rationale, we would treat all Catholics (the majority denomination in Canada...) like IRA or INLA types.

Cheers.

 

[winchable]

Hats off to everyone on the thread for the cool tempermant thusfar

 

[ackland]

Fact of the matter is I do speak out against them, so in that sense, I suppose I'm not with them. That way of discerning terrorists from regular Ahmed down the street is deeply flawed. There are rallies, Muslims are for peace, but you will not see them on CNN. I rarely bring up the media, mainly because I despise it (CNN, Al-Jaz, Fox, you name it) They are not the cause of all Muslim's problems, but they are keeping the divide between the West and the East nice and wide. I'm doing my part, There are literally, thousands of young Muslims my age doing the same, fact of the matter is, you will never see us on TV..you will never read about us in the news. It's a hard concept for someone from the west to grasp, but imagine if the only news you ever saw about America was about people like Ted Bundy and Ted Kazynski.

Have you ever contacted a local news outlet about maybe doing an interveiw or story about what you do. Go out and preach your view to the media and see if you get any intrest there. Have you tried? If you sit and hope that some one will take notice of your rational teachings I truley beleive that no one outside this thresd will hear what you have to say. Media doesn't seem to search out the feel good stories but will cover them if it is brought to their attention. Mayby you should try. Break the barrier.

 

[Bograt]

Welcome to the new reality. No longer are we facing threats from states with capitals. The new reality is the "stateless" threat- emerging from the ghettos, shanty towns and suburbs. While traditional threats are still present (i.e Iran, North Korea, China) the "clear and ever present danger" is the ethereal force. Fundraising at community bingo games, training in desert camps of sympathizing nations, and unfortunately killing under their banner. I think what is immediately lost is the fact that 900 million people consider themselves Muslim.

From Indonesia to the Middle east to the family down the street, Muslims are trying to do what normal people do. Make sure their bills are paid, family is safe and their lives are long. It is natural for disenfranchised segments of populations to view their current socio-economic position as a result of "Zionist or western or -insert your cause here-" and not as the result of their own corrupt governments. It is easy for them to be convinced by "perfume spitting monsters" to take up arms and set them selves on fire.

I think it is okay to say that they are muslim terrorists, because that is what they are- that is the banner the choose to fight under. I am also sharpe enough to know that they are not muslims- in fact they are not even human beings. They are killers, liars, theives, butchers, hypocrites, bastards, monters - I can go on.

I sometimes wonder if God is going to kick all our arses when we die for the things we have done in his name.

 

[winchable]

Have you ever contacted a local news outlet

Been done, trust me if you folks can think of it, I've done it. Persistence doesn't work. Our local paper prints the most inane garbage about student councils from highschools (I should know, I was in one) but they will not print stuff that could be controversial. The news channel is about the same, nothing controversial. My counterparts in Toronto have done the same with larger papers and larger stations, no response thusfar. There is a huge group of us across North America, so chances are we've tried it all at some point.

 

[R2Truman]

I was just wondering is this a pre shooting George Wallace, or a post shooting George Wallace who is asking about racist removal of a religion ?
R2

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wrong George Wallace, the question should be the pre-drink George or the post-drink one.

 

[George Wallace]

Bruce

Don't let her 'witticisms' cause us to side track our discussion.  There are some interesting points being put forward and possibly a solution or two to some of the dilemmas being faced.

GW

 

[winchable]

I think perhaps a solution to the whole problem is education on both sides.
It's simplistic, remove the mystery surrounding the "other" side. Proper education too, not the education you get from the telly or the internet.

 

[George Wallace]

I believe that is only part of the overall solution.  It would have been the solution had it been done prior to Terrorist events.  Now we must do more.  It is the stepping block by which we will start putting an end to 'these terrorists', but we must also unite the community at large to stand up to them.

GW

 

[Lance Wiebe]

I agree.  Education is a key, but just one key, and there are many locks.

Muslims are taught from youth (in the extremist schools) that their religion is the only true religion, all others are non-believers.  It is not a crime to kill a non believer, in their eyes.  They are also taught that the west, in particular the US, is the greatest threat to the true believers. 

And we feel somewhat intimidated.  They do not fear death, they do not succomb to threats.  We deal well with countries that respond to threats, we do not deal well with this crowd.  No matter what defenses, they will strive to find a weakness.  And if some die, well, thats OK.  Because it is for the greater good of Islam.

I think that this is what George is really referring to.  We will not, cannot, change their beliefs.  The extremists will always be plotting to hurt the west.  The question remains, will the killing of all of the extremists, worldwide, the only solution?  Is it even possible?  Could we even survive what will be a very ugly war?  What if we lose?

 

[George Wallace]

Che is right about Education and as Lance says it is only one key to the many locks that are 'imprisoning' us.  There are programs that are being implimented, one of which is "Right To Play" and a few programs here in Canada, where differing factions are sending their children here to spend weeks at "Peace Camps" or the sort.  Irish Catholic and Protestant children have been hosted as have Jewish and Palistinian children at some of these camps and the end results have been quite positive.  These programs are working to educate and bring opposing factions together before the hatred festers too much to be changed.  However, we need people dedicated and financially funded, privately or by the state, to run such programs.  The will must be there.  Both opposing factions must have the courage to try and make these programs work.  Courage to stand up to and deny the radical Fundamentalists the spread of their hate and terror is required also.  Strong policing and monitoring of illegal activities must be put into place.   S_Baker's point number 4 has to be resolved.

Not easy, but as we have seen in a few posts here, ideals can be changed.  



GW

 

[Niss]

Would someone of the Muslim faith please enlighten me on Jihad? Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems to me that its kind of hard to claim that your faith is a peaceful one when you have rules and guidlines to a holy war. Perhapse Che could reply, I would prefer to get it from someone who is in the faith rather than a person who has read a book.

 

[IWannaBePPCLI]

OK I couldn't get all the way throught reading the posts so if i repeat someonses.. let me know.  I believe that the action to take against certain people. being terrorists and "evildoers" is  to eliminate them... I HAvE ABSOLUTELY NO reason to say that ANY religion should be depleted... I do however believe that Terrorists should be delt witha ccordingly... I say that when the government gets RELIABLE information that terrorists are in a certain location they should have a force that goes in and TACTICALLY eliminates the TERRORISTS ONLY NOT CIVILLIANS and so thereing meaning that the debriefing will need to include detailed pictures or at least realy good photos of the targets and then when the team gets to the Target Destination they wil eliminate ONLY the terrorists.. allowing this to help eliminate the current problem with terrorism.....


Of course there is also the other side that many people believe that if one terrorist didnt exist.. another would be there instead... such as (only in example)  If Hitler were never exitent.. then someone else would have done what he did... there is no actual way to kill off the entire enemy... except to destroy the planet but unless we finally finish making Mars suitable for living... that wont hapen....  either way i hope this was helpful and that noone thinks i am some sort of weirdo

good luck to you all!!