Islam and Western Society

[ackland]

 

So how can any Christian really judge Islam for the things being done in it`s name now?   The religion itself isn't the problem.   Like with any other religion, it's the sadistic bastards who misinterpret it and use it as a device for controlling others that are the problem.  
[/quote/]

While I agree with this in principle, I have to say we can blame them because after 1000's of years we have evolved to respect other religions for the most part. They have not. They continue to kill and oppress in the name of religion. Not many christians doing that these days.

 

[48Highlander]

I never said anything about blaming "them".  I asked how a Christian can judge Islam based on the things being done in it's name.  Unless by "them" you're refering to every single Muslim in the world (which I sincierly doubt), I think you understand that the religion itself isn't the problem.  I think the whole war on terrorism would be a lot more effective if we could stop making religious distinctions altogether.

 

[ackland]

Yes that is true but when the terrorist claims his acts are in the name of said religion it's hard to exclude that subject. What needs to be done is have the media explian the difference better. I have a friend who is muslim. He is no hard liner but we sat down one day and compaired notes christianity and muslim are very similart in teachings and ideology.

Christians should not judge at all. "Judge not lest ye be judged".that is some where in the New Testiment.

As North American we like to think we do things for a just cause but the whole war in Iraq is just a war being faught for the religion of commerce.

 

[QORvanweert]

Look at Christianity in the early days.   Someone in a villiage gets sick?   Find a suspicious looking woman and burn her to death.   She must have been a witch.   They feard science the same way Islamic extremists fear western culture, and any sort of thought that went against the teachings of the bible was considered ground for torture or death.  

So how can any Christian really judge Islam for the things being done in it`s name now?   The religion itself isn't the problem.   Like with any other religion, it's the sadistic bastards who misinterpret it and use it as a device for controlling others that are the problem.   And the social/political situation that exists in some Islamic countries makes it almost impossible for anyone to change that.   One thing that`s easy to notice is that the ammount of religious control practiced within a given country is usualy tied to it`s economic situation.   A country in poverty creates more people looking to God for a solution, as well as creating more opportunities to misuse religious beleifs in order to take advantage of others.   A prosperous country creates the opposite.   Extremists, those who seek to control others through the use of religion, will always exist, in every country and every religion.   Just look at Pat Roberts.   But when people are have food, water, are educated, entertained and comfortable, they generaly tend to ignore people like that.

1. The Salem Witch trials had nothing to do with the "Church" as I would like to be associated with, these so called trials were really nothing more then a way to get back at your enemies. Catholicism is one of the most man centered religions of all time, Islam aside. Thus we had our reformation and have since separated. However this separation was so bloody and prolonged that it effects are still being felt today just take a gander about Belfast etc.. The inherent fault of Catholicism is that they have elevated the Pope as an intercessor with Jesus. Islam did the same thing with Mohammed. What this means is that both fallible men, nothing more then men, are being raised up beyond the general populace by other men. Not by Jesus, hence why they cannot be disciples/prophets/leaders. This man centred view is the reason for so much strife because it involves men making the decisions, not God.
2. During the Inquisition it is true that any thought that went against the Catholic interpretation of the Bible was grounds for torture or death. However, the bible says very little with regards to pure science and many ideas that instigated torture/death went against what the Pope thought was right and the views of his many advisors. It must be noted that in the Protestant countries, namely Holland and what was to become Belgium, great pride was taken in being secure cities/burgs/provinces etc.. against the Papist Inquisition.
3. Followers of Islam do not fear Western culture, they hate us because we are Christian, Jew, Hindu, Monks from the moon etc. The Qu'ran explicitly states that it is their job "to convert all those unconverted on pain of death" I am sure we all appreciate history here, right? well, harkening back to the good ol' days of 1453 when Constantinople fell to the Islamic armies of Mmet who later re-christened himself "the Conqueror" I am sure we all remember what happened next. Within the century the Moors were already in Spain. There are a few very good reasons why it is called "Militant Islam".

4. The point of the crusades was a valid one, although not in the quoted text, but nevertheless valid. Once again the prospect of militant christianity came up. The original crusade was comissioned by the Pope and had no biblical pretext aside from the mystic ideals of reclaiming Jerusalem. However, the Templars and Hospitallers were given all the land they took, this of course being the price of the Popes religious allowance. As you can see, they had a slight vested interest. Protestantism preaches that "we go out and preach unto the world", nowhere does it state that we use force to convert those of other religions(as in Islam) nowhere does it state that there are rewards for dieing in an aggressive war(as in Islam) and nowhere does it state that we initiate violence of any means except in self defence. The Quakers believe that we are to be totally pacifistic.
5. Ok, this is my last point, I promise. Any more and I will start to feel as if I am Martin Luther himself. speaking of which who do you think "Martin Luther King" was named after, and what did he advocate?!? on a more serious note, Islam is corrupted because of its means of transference. Sharia law, the Qu'ran (a.k.a. Koran) all are based on precepts in Sharia's case or are completely interpretable. There are no strict guidelines to set forth the texts. This allows for unbelievable leeway on the part of the reader.
    Thus said, I am not advocating the war in Iraq, although I do agree with it. I am not advocating genocide, certainly don't agree with that. And by no means am I saying what they are doing is right even if it is in accord with their teachings. Part of Canada is the "right to freedom of religion" and no religion can be banned. However certain religions should be controlled to within reasonable limits (ie.. don't indoctrinate children to become suicide bombers) and these limits must be very reasonable.

 

[1feral1]

Meanwhile as all this discussion goes on, yesterday at 1330hrs AEST the Australian Embassy was carbombed (suicide bomber) in Jakarta by the extreme islamic terrorist group JI.

As of this am 11 killed and over 180 injured. This was a direct attack against Australia, and with a federal election in less than 1 month, many fear of a Spanish style attack on our own soil.

As this was going on I was with some locally based Commandos, and we were discussing in general conversation of the risks of such attacks right here in Sydney. Although they were tight lipped about things, we all realise that the threat of attack against Australian interests overseas and at home is very real. It was not until 45 mins later the radio announced the attack.

Some are saying this attack is payback for Iraq and A'stan, and being allied with the USA, but in reality these terrs see anything western as a target, and hate us for many reasons other than our involvement in operations overseas.

Only one Australian seriously wounded, and sadly that was a 5 yr old child who is in critical condition. Her Indonesian mother, was one of the 11 killed (many were vapourised and the excact count may never be known, as the bomb was detonated in heavy traffic). All killed were Indonesian.

EDIT: As of late this arvo, in regards to the seriously injured 5 yr old girl. She had just recieved her Australian citizenship on 01 Sep, and she and her Mum were at the front gate to pickup her passport when the bomb went off. Her Mum was killed instantly. Her Dad a NSW policeman based out of NSW is reported to be enroute to Jakarta to be with his daughter. Lets hope she pulls through. Also other children are reported to be killed in this incident too.

Traces of AMFO have been found at the sight, and a 3 metre deep water filled crater is visible right out front. This was no small bomb. The blast was heard up to 30km away, and a gaint mushroom cloud hung over the city for hours. Buidlings were extensivly damaged within 600 metres from the detonition point.

Last week was that sickening school siege in Russia. What next?

Every religion has its right winger nutters, and wiping out the whole religion is not the answer, but destroying the heart of the   :gunner: :akimbo: :flame: :sniper: :cam: :rocket: terrorist groups and their leaders through any reasonable means is necessary.

As for Indonesia, how big is it? Its a nation of some 280,000,000 people, which means its the largest muslim country in the world, with many minority smaller religions. Christians have always lived in fear, and every week churches are burnt, and people are murdered.

Indonesia has over 16,000 islands of which 13,000 are populated. We are to the south on the largest island continent (roughly the size of the lower 48 states in the USA), with a population of just 19,000,000 which was Canada's population over 30 yrs ago.

Its not gonna happen overnight. We are in for the long haul.

Wanna know more? Try www.dailytelegraph.com.au or www.news.com.au

Regards,

Wes

 

[winchable]

"to convert all those unconverted on pain of death"

If you're going to use quotations, make sure it's the proper one especially when such allegations are concerned.
It is honestly this exact same thing that causes hate for Muslims, not saying your full of hate. But it can be as simple as misquoted passages from the Qu'ran in the media, etc. That causes misconceptions.

â Å“Let there be no compulsion in religionâ ? (2:256a).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you find what you are looking for in ANY religion. If you look for a wrathful God unleashing the fires of hell on the infidels, you will find it in ANY religious text etc. If you're looking for peace, brotherhood, spiritual prosperity and guidelines with which to live an upright life, then you'll find them as well.

Firstly, the people that were "converted on pain of death" were polytheists, not Christians and Jews. The Christians and Jews were to pay taxes to the Muslims...now today that's obviously probably not going to fly, but we're not talking modern times..everyone was killing the pagans back then.
Now, I won't lie, the people of the book were certainly under pressure to convert, but under penalty of death? No.

The truth is, Muslims, living in the Near-east and Christians living everywhere else were all behaving in the same manner and following basically the same principles.

But this is all off topic..

By comparing Christianity to Islam in the context of the war on Terror, you essentially turn it into a modern Crusade...which makes us no better then those classic crusaders converting by the sword(On both sides of the religious spectrum)
So In all seriousness folks, I think there is a general consensus that the eradication of Islam is not going to happen, nor is it a viable option. That terrorists are terrorists plain and simple, eradicating the religion that you would believe most of them to be, will not get rid of terrorists and will as I've stated already, leave a blackmark on history that will be remembered as a genocide, not a "good" war.

My prediction is that even if Islam were somehow miraculously eradicated, hundreds of years later after people finally realised that, hey, the world isn't that much better now...and we systematically killed more then a billion people...an officialy apology would be made but 1 Billion people would still have died in vain...So, personally I wouldn't care, and neither would my children..they wouldn't exist and I'll be long dead (Killed in the purges I imagine)  but I'm certain this would weigh on the conscience of many billions more.

 

[winchable]

Its not gonna happen overnight. We are in for a the long haul.

Precisely Wes, in the context of the thread, this is the answer..not the erradication of the entire religion which is the shortcut to "peace"

 

[1feral1]

From today's paper. They say a picture has 1000 words. Here is 2000 words.

 

[QORvanweert]

Any resentment lurking around in Indonesia is most likely a remnant of the Dutch East India company's actions. I can certainly admit that what we did there was not right.. but attacking the Australian embassy is slightly off colour for any of the popular protest reasons of today..

 

[1feral1]

Mate, are you for real?    : Wake up to today!

The attack of our embassy has got nothing to do with the Dutch or its companies, and the same goes with the gutless attack on Kuta Beach in Bali   (thats in Indonesia too) on 12 Oct 02, (oops... you were only 15 yrs old when that happened) where over 200 people were killed which included 89 Australians, and six of them lived in my neighbourhood!

FYI - JI has just announced they are taking responsibilty for yesterday's murderous act, and say they will continue to attack Australian interests overseas and on our own soil until our troops leave Iraq.

JI was also responsible for the Marriot Hotel bombing in Aug 2003 in Jakarta (12 people murdered, dozens injured), and of course the Bali bombings the year previous to that.

This is the second attack against us in less than two years, and Australia has been attacked not for what we have done, but for who we are.

That is we are a freedom loving people with free views and expressions and complete freedom, while to the north you are mudrered for your beliefs. Sure we were directly involved in defeating Indonesia on the East Timor front, and fighting this new war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq. We will continue to do this until our mandate is filled.

Many in Indonesia see us as a Christian crusading nation who has forced islam out of and defeated their government in East Timor, and there is much bitterness by many.

Sadly in this cowardly   :rage: attack   :rage: yesterday, its the broad muslim Indonesian people that suffer (and die a the hands of other muslims), along with their tourism industry and economy. Try www.dfat.gov.au if you want to know the Australian governments recomendations on travel to that region.

Australian Federal Police have flown into Jakarta, and are on site and assisting Indonesian local police with forensic help learned from Kuta Beach.

 

[QORvanweert]

so, in your esteemed opinion, what do you consider to be the reason for this attack?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Wes already answered that:

FYI JI has just announced they are taking responsibilty for yesterday's murderous act, and say they will continue to attack Australian interests until our troops leave Iraq.

 

[QORvanweert]

point taken

 

[1feral1]

In my esteemed opinion  , I do beleive another LoEI nomination is about to happen sooner than later.

 

[winchable]

Keep it on topic gents

 

[gozonuts]

I think the question "should we get rid of Islam" may have been tongue in cheek, but even though, it is an interesting question. Aren't we all a little sick of the Muslim problem in the world today? We are told over and over that we shouldn't "paint them all with the same brush", and someone even parroted this in a post. If we can't pait them with same brush, why is it that the Muslim community are not MUCH more vocal in their condemnation of the terrorists? I live in Montreal where you cannot throw a rock without hitting an Arab, and often have classes cancelled due their demostrations (ie breaking windows, ganging up on Jews etc.) . I pay tuition as do they, yet I have to suffer the loss of classes and lecturers scheduled to visit my university that they don't approve of. The government should set basic standards when allowing imports into our country, like basic manners and how to fit into our society, and to leave your hate at the door. Instead the government allows terrorist's wives and children to return to our country on our dime after they have went on record and described in detail why they hate us and our values - at least if this happened in the U.S., they would have been lynched had the government allowed them back in. When Canada gets a taste of terrorism such as the Americans, Australians, and pretty much everyone else, then I feel most people here will get over their liberal ideals. Here is a little tidbit I found on the net - kind of silly, but something to think about.

--- In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and  massacred by:
a. Olga Corbutt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
 
--- In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old  American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
 
--- In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
a. Captain Kid
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- On 9/11/2001, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were murdered by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, Elmer Fudd
b. Florida's Governor Jeb Bush
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 2002 four French journalists, including one woman, were dragged from their cars near the Pakistan border with Afghanistan, taken behind some rocks, and shot to death by:
a. Gang Green's front four
b. Barney
c. The Smashing Pumpkins
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
 
--- In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

--- American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami on December 22, 2001 had a passenger with a 'Shoe Bomb' who tried to blow up the plane but was over powered and captured by passengers was:
a. A distraught Al Gore gone radical 1960's hippie mental
b. Monica Lewinsky who said she was tired of hearing Bill play the Saxophone
c. Donald Rumsfeld
d. Richard Colvan Reid a.k.a. Tariq Rajah a.k.a. Abdel Rahim, a typical useless low life cowardly radical Muslim asshole caught and convicted of this crime

--- In May 2004 American Businessman Nicholas Evan Berg was captured in Iraq and beheaded by:
a. The French Foreign Legion using a guillotine under direct orders from President Jacques Chirac
b. A wild band of crazy Japanese Samurai Warriors
c. A Philippine Truck Driver who rig ran out of control
d. Committed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of an Islamist (Muslim) terrorist group which is part of al-Qaida operating inside Iraq


:soldier:

 

[winchable]

Aren't we all a little sick of the Muslim problem

What would be your "Final Solution" ?

I'm sorry if you feel I'm parroting the idea that it's wrong to paint a group with the same brush. Would you paint all blacks with the same Brush because 1 in 10 Black males are currently in Prison?
I'm also sorry you think that the majority of Muslims do not oppose terrorism and that the terrorists wives and children are a good representation of what the majority of Muslims (You should take issue with the government over that, not Muslims)
The majority of Muslims want to live their lives like any other, when we do speak out against terrorism who covers it? NOBODY.
Every Friday I give a lecture to the youth at my mosque about how to be a respectful young Muslims and how to live in a secular country, I and a large group of other young Muslims my age give the same lecture in Mosques all over North America.
Why does no one choose to talk about this? Why does everyone choose to present the Arab store owner, or cab driver as a negative image rather then the positive image of how a Muslim can be an outstanding citizen in a country they move to?
Why is it that people such as myself are ignored completely when we represent the majority of Muslims?

I've been saturated by that list of bombings and how clever it is. I'm sure it might interest you to know that the list is generally believed to have been started by a group called "The Heritage Front"
It's the truth, no one will question that. But it is selective reporting, selective in the sense that once again people are only willing to see what they want, that is the image of the AK waving, Qu'Ran reciting long bearded Arab/Muslim.

1 Billion Muslims in the world, 365 days in a year, 1 Billion Muslims live seperate lives that no one considers and believe it or not they don't all fit into the the media friendly image of the Osama bin Laden loving idiot.

 

[Gunnerlove]

Don't forget the sinking of the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.
Oh wait wrong religious fanatics. Guess we should get rid of all people who are crazy about "their" god.

 

[Niss]

I know this is a sensative issue and i by no means condone genocide or anything of the sort, but the fact is that the only people who are really doing anything about the Islamic extremists are the non muslims. Instead of rallying in support of the extremests or saying it was their oppressors (Israel, United States, etc) who drove them to do the acts of terror, why arent they protesting against them? Why arent there thousands of pro peace palestinians infront of the parliment building, saying that the killing on both sides stop? I have never heard of 10 000 palestinians walking the streets yelling peace to the middle east, usually its about how the jews are terrorists, death to the infidel bla bla bla. Instead of perpetuating violent actions or thoughts through rallies and crying when people say that all white people are against middle eastern people why dont you get your communities to hold a rally that opposes the extremests. I believe you are sincere in your wishes for peace and anger at the terrorists. But the fact remains, unless you are ready to speak out against them, your silence speaks with them.

Rant Off

 

[winchable]

Perfect example Niss thankyou.
I've noticed on this site the people are at constant odds with the media in general "IF you believe everything the media tells you, you're an idiot." Except when it comes time to blame the brown guy, then the only thing we know about the Middle east is what we see on CNN (Muhamed Q. Public with his Kalishnakov)
Fact of the matter is I do speak out against them, so in that sense, I suppose I'm not with them. That way of discerning terrorists from regular Ahmed down the street is deeply flawed. There are rallies, Muslims are for peace, but you will not see them on CNN. I rarely bring up the media, mainly because I despise it (CNN, Al-Jaz, Fox, you name it) They are not the cause of all Muslim's problems, but they are keeping the divide between the West and the East nice and wide. They aren't the only ones, leaders in the middle east (Israeli, Arab, American) are TERRIBLE.. bar none, but your average Muslims is almost exactly like you. Perhaps he is more passionate about things religious, that is the nature of Islam, it is part of everyday life for a Muslim (A concept impossible for someone from the West to grasp) which is exactly what makes it susceptible to terrorism. Our perfection is our downfall, it is our devout nature and love for God that makes a young Muslim easy pray.
I'm doing my part, There are literally, thousands of young Muslims my age doing the same, fact of the matter is, you will never see us on TV..you will never read about us in the news. It's a hard concept for someone from the west to grasp, but imagine if the only news you ever saw about America was about people like Ted Bundy and Ted Kazynski.

I could write pages and pages but I do grow quite weary of it, I love to help people understand Islam and I love it when someone finally figures out some of the basics. However I find that mostly people only want to hear the bad things about it and hence, they will only find the bad things about it. I will be no part of that, find a mosque in your area, find a Muslim teacher at a university and talk to them for a proper introduction. You don't have to obviously, but that's the best advice I could give you. Reading about Islam on the internet will give you a flawed perception and I don't want to make it worse, so please if anyone is serious about bridging the gap between west and east, education is the beginning but not here! Go! Seek it out in real life my square eyed minions! LEARN!