- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Hello all,
I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF. My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.). From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong). I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information. With all of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I am hoping to make the intelligence side of the military my career. I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in. Some context of myself:
- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")
I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including a person currently in the CT process to the trade) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit). I've also heard that the numbers of available positions are essentially nill.
If the above is true what would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances? Any clarifications and any information above and beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Fergie
PS: I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand and am more than aware of the grillings/stay in your lane comments in some of those threads. I'll do my best to avoid the same outcome ;D
I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF. My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.). From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong). I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information. With all of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I am hoping to make the intelligence side of the military my career. I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in. Some context of myself:
- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")
I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including a person currently in the CT process to the trade) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit). I've also heard that the numbers of available positions are essentially nill.
If the above is true what would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances? Any clarifications and any information above and beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Fergie
PS: I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand and am more than aware of the grillings/stay in your lane comments in some of those threads. I'll do my best to avoid the same outcome ;D
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 142
- Points
- 710
This may help:
ltmaverick25 said:
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Hello all,
I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF. My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.). From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong). I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information. All of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I want to make the intelligence side of the military my career. I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in. Some context of myself:
- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years as an NCM
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")
I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including the posts in this thread) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit, Psy Ops, CIMIC, etc.). I've also heard (as the previous posts seem to confirm) that the numbers of available positions are essentially nil.
What would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances and the realities of openings? Any clarifications and information above-and-beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Fergie
PS: I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand. If I have missed something that is already posted forgive me (a re-direction is always well taken).
I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF. My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.). From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong). I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information. All of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I want to make the intelligence side of the military my career. I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in. Some context of myself:
- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years as an NCM
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")
I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including the posts in this thread) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit, Psy Ops, CIMIC, etc.). I've also heard (as the previous posts seem to confirm) that the numbers of available positions are essentially nil.
What would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances and the realities of openings? Any clarifications and information above-and-beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Fergie
PS: I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand. If I have missed something that is already posted forgive me (a re-direction is always well taken).
From my understanding, you will have a great deal of difficultly becoming an Intelligence Officer because the branch is currently overloaded by 15% in officer positions.
I do not believe the branch is accepting anymore officers for the next few years.
I do not believe the branch is accepting anymore officers for the next few years.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 142
- Points
- 710
Fergie said:
Hey Fergie
The above and this is bordering on SPAM. We do not appreciate that here. You were given answers to this question, and still you ask it again. If you think an INT OP or INT O would conduct themselves in this manner, your are mistaken. If you can not read and absorb what is written or spoken, then INT is not for you.
By the way, being a Reservist, you should know that it is INT; not Intel. Intel is either American, or a Compurter product.
[Edit: It is not "compurter", but "computer". Sorry! Spent too much time on the Island adding "r's" to words such as "warsh". ]
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
The Int Officer trade is considered to be purple, meaning that it is common to all elements and theoretically an Army officer could find himself working in a Navy environment ect... However, this is something that is becoming less and less true as time goes on. For example, the Navy will absolutely not allow an Air or Army Int Officer to be posted to the J2 Section in Esquimalt. I know of only one exception to this and that is because her husband is being posted out there in a relatively high position.
Similarly it would be rare to find a Navy Int O as the G2 for an infantry battalion or Brigade.
As for the environments themselves.
Navy Int Os can get deployed to sea on one of our frigates or destroyers. However, these opportunities are rare compared to the number of Navy Int Os competing for those spots so right now its not easy to get. In Garrison Navy Int Os will either go to Esquimalt or Halifax for environmental specific employment and there are several positions in Ottawa. They can also be found in the Joint HQs across the country. For example there is a Navy Int O posted to JTFC in Toronto right now, and another one posted to 1 Div HQ in Kingston.
Army Int Os can be posted to the infantry battalions, Armoured Regiments, Brigades, Land Force Area HQs, (LFWA, LFAA, LFCA, LFQA), the Joint HQs, 1 Div, and of course several positions in Ottawa. If you are part of a battalion you will still get lots of field time. When the battalion has a major exercise you will go to the field with them and work in the Battalion HQ. So think of a portable office under a giant tent. The same is true for Brigade level postings. Moreover, if your Battalion or Brigade deploys to Afghanistan, in all likeliness you will deploy with them as part of their Int support team. Intelligence Officers are staff officers, which means you are employed in HQs for the most part. That can be a dry comfy office in Ottawa, or a tent in the middle of the Arctic.
Air Force Int Os can be posted to any of the Wing's or Squadron's throughout the country working in their respective HQs providing Int support to flight operations of all kinds. If you are part of a Tac Hel squadron you will have more of an Army experience then an Air experience so you can see the best and worst of both worlds. Air guys can also be posted on either coast supporting maritime flight operations which means working very close with the Navy. Whenever an Air element deploys, Air Int will go with them. I don't have too much more info on the Air side as I haven't been exposed to much of it myself. Otherwise they can also be posted to a number of positions in Ottawa and the Joint HQs throughout the country.
So bottom line, you spend the vast majority of your career hoping from one HQ to another. Your job is to support the commander by providing him Int that he requires to successfully complete his mission. So where he is, you will be. You certainly wont see the same kind of field time as a combat arms guy, or sea time as a MARS officer would, but, there will be times when Army guys go to the field and Navy guys get to sail.
As for a CT to the reg force as an Int O... It will be extremely difficult. The Int Branch is not expecting to take in very many to the trade in the next few years. We currently have over 70 officers awaiting BIOC. Average wait times for a course can be two years or more.
The best thing you can do right now is finish your degree. Maybe start up a masters degree. You can also look at commissioning as an Armoured Officer in the reserves first. You will be one step closer that way. Or you could try to transfer to a reserve Int Company as an NCM, or try to go in as an officer. Regardless of which way you try to enhance your chances, you should still submit your CT request and get it in the Q.
Hope this helps.
Similarly it would be rare to find a Navy Int O as the G2 for an infantry battalion or Brigade.
As for the environments themselves.
Navy Int Os can get deployed to sea on one of our frigates or destroyers. However, these opportunities are rare compared to the number of Navy Int Os competing for those spots so right now its not easy to get. In Garrison Navy Int Os will either go to Esquimalt or Halifax for environmental specific employment and there are several positions in Ottawa. They can also be found in the Joint HQs across the country. For example there is a Navy Int O posted to JTFC in Toronto right now, and another one posted to 1 Div HQ in Kingston.
Army Int Os can be posted to the infantry battalions, Armoured Regiments, Brigades, Land Force Area HQs, (LFWA, LFAA, LFCA, LFQA), the Joint HQs, 1 Div, and of course several positions in Ottawa. If you are part of a battalion you will still get lots of field time. When the battalion has a major exercise you will go to the field with them and work in the Battalion HQ. So think of a portable office under a giant tent. The same is true for Brigade level postings. Moreover, if your Battalion or Brigade deploys to Afghanistan, in all likeliness you will deploy with them as part of their Int support team. Intelligence Officers are staff officers, which means you are employed in HQs for the most part. That can be a dry comfy office in Ottawa, or a tent in the middle of the Arctic.
Air Force Int Os can be posted to any of the Wing's or Squadron's throughout the country working in their respective HQs providing Int support to flight operations of all kinds. If you are part of a Tac Hel squadron you will have more of an Army experience then an Air experience so you can see the best and worst of both worlds. Air guys can also be posted on either coast supporting maritime flight operations which means working very close with the Navy. Whenever an Air element deploys, Air Int will go with them. I don't have too much more info on the Air side as I haven't been exposed to much of it myself. Otherwise they can also be posted to a number of positions in Ottawa and the Joint HQs throughout the country.
So bottom line, you spend the vast majority of your career hoping from one HQ to another. Your job is to support the commander by providing him Int that he requires to successfully complete his mission. So where he is, you will be. You certainly wont see the same kind of field time as a combat arms guy, or sea time as a MARS officer would, but, there will be times when Army guys go to the field and Navy guys get to sail.
As for a CT to the reg force as an Int O... It will be extremely difficult. The Int Branch is not expecting to take in very many to the trade in the next few years. We currently have over 70 officers awaiting BIOC. Average wait times for a course can be two years or more.
The best thing you can do right now is finish your degree. Maybe start up a masters degree. You can also look at commissioning as an Armoured Officer in the reserves first. You will be one step closer that way. Or you could try to transfer to a reserve Int Company as an NCM, or try to go in as an officer. Regardless of which way you try to enhance your chances, you should still submit your CT request and get it in the Q.
Hope this helps.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
George,
He sent me a PM asking for some answers and I asked him to post his original post here so that I could provide the answers to anyone looking for the information. I was under the impression that the other thread had been locked.
He sent me a PM asking for some answers and I asked him to post his original post here so that I could provide the answers to anyone looking for the information. I was under the impression that the other thread had been locked.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
Thanks Ltmaverick25,
Your reply essentially spelled out most of the unknowns to me. Recceguy, your post also helps tremendously (it never hurts to know those sort of "methods").
Having been under the impression that it's highly unlikely to CT into INT within a reasonable amount of time (though I'll put my name in the system), I have begun to look at options that will make me more competitive down the road. These options are MARS officer (preferably aboard a sub) or Armour officer (preferably recce). Obviously with my armour recce "experience" it would seem logical to continue along that path, however I do find a MARS officer career aboard subs (yes I'm looking a tad far ahead, but dare I dream? ;D) very appealing. I want to "know" what's going on and have an impact on the big picture, hence my desire for INT, and both have a focus--amongst other tasks--on recce/surveillance (obviously in very different capacities) which I personally find appealing. To this end I have two questions:
1) Which of these two paths is more relevant in terms of eventually transitioning into the Int O world?
2) Are there combat arms trades that are more "desirable" for incoming Int O candidates to have experience within (in the short-mid term)?
Any info/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks all,
-Fergie
Your reply essentially spelled out most of the unknowns to me. Recceguy, your post also helps tremendously (it never hurts to know those sort of "methods").
Having been under the impression that it's highly unlikely to CT into INT within a reasonable amount of time (though I'll put my name in the system), I have begun to look at options that will make me more competitive down the road. These options are MARS officer (preferably aboard a sub) or Armour officer (preferably recce). Obviously with my armour recce "experience" it would seem logical to continue along that path, however I do find a MARS officer career aboard subs (yes I'm looking a tad far ahead, but dare I dream? ;D) very appealing. I want to "know" what's going on and have an impact on the big picture, hence my desire for INT, and both have a focus--amongst other tasks--on recce/surveillance (obviously in very different capacities) which I personally find appealing. To this end I have two questions:
1) Which of these two paths is more relevant in terms of eventually transitioning into the Int O world?
2) Are there combat arms trades that are more "desirable" for incoming Int O candidates to have experience within (in the short-mid term)?
Any info/comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks all,
-Fergie
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
That really depends on weather you want to be a Naval Int O or an Army Int O.
If you want to be a Navy Int O then going MARS is a good route as you will suffer a huge credibility gap with the operators if you don't have any sea time. You will also suffer an even bigger credibility gap among the Naval Int Os that are former MARS officers. However, MARS, last time I checked was considered a red trade. Meaning that once in the reg force it is extremely difficult to switch out to another trade.
As for desirable combat arms trades prior to Int... That just comes down to a matter of opinion. I personally don't think there is any such thing. We have guys with a myriad of different backgrounds and quite a few who are fresh off the street.
What you really have to consider is which one of these trades would you be most happy serving in for your entire career. Right now it is just as hard to VOT to Int O from another reg force trade as it is to CT. So you want to make sure you are in a trade that you can see yourself doing over the long term just in case things don't work out.
Also, if I am not mistaken, I think there is a minimum timeframe that you must serve in one trade before you can qualify to VOT to another one in the reg force. So that is something you want look into as well.
If you want to be a Navy Int O then going MARS is a good route as you will suffer a huge credibility gap with the operators if you don't have any sea time. You will also suffer an even bigger credibility gap among the Naval Int Os that are former MARS officers. However, MARS, last time I checked was considered a red trade. Meaning that once in the reg force it is extremely difficult to switch out to another trade.
As for desirable combat arms trades prior to Int... That just comes down to a matter of opinion. I personally don't think there is any such thing. We have guys with a myriad of different backgrounds and quite a few who are fresh off the street.
What you really have to consider is which one of these trades would you be most happy serving in for your entire career. Right now it is just as hard to VOT to Int O from another reg force trade as it is to CT. So you want to make sure you are in a trade that you can see yourself doing over the long term just in case things don't work out.
Also, if I am not mistaken, I think there is a minimum timeframe that you must serve in one trade before you can qualify to VOT to another one in the reg force. So that is something you want look into as well.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Int O can be direct entry, if you have the right credentials for it. Int op, you must have 3 years previous service.
- Reaction score
- 2,827
- Points
- 940
I don't think Recceguy was recommending that route, or being remotely complimentary to anyone who manipulates the system to benefit themselves to the detriment of those adhering to established procedures.Fergie said:
While I don't know the person he's describing, he certainly sounds like someone not to be depended upon in a team situation. I'm sure we've all met people who will blade anyone around them to get ahead.
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 60
Journeyman,
That is the same impression I got from Recceguy's post. I'll work on making sarcastic remarks more obvious... though it is still good to know for the sake of knowing ;D
On a serious note to those methods, in general I personally think it is good knowledge to have. Not being fully aware of all options to carry out a task/goal is leaving your tool box partially empty, which is always foolish. I personally like to think I am above that type of conduct (and I'm sure my colleagues would back that sentiment) and that others avoid such measures, but it is obviously foolish to assume so (as you point out we all know that "someone").
What may have appeared to be an excellent opportunity initially may end hurting in the long run. Recceguy's post made that more clear to me (which is helpful), as I had previously thought playing around with transfers would cut down on the wait, but would likely have repurcussions that outweigh the benefit of "getting in" quicker. Your sentiment is appreciated and well taken.
-Fergie
That is the same impression I got from Recceguy's post. I'll work on making sarcastic remarks more obvious... though it is still good to know for the sake of knowing ;D
On a serious note to those methods, in general I personally think it is good knowledge to have. Not being fully aware of all options to carry out a task/goal is leaving your tool box partially empty, which is always foolish. I personally like to think I am above that type of conduct (and I'm sure my colleagues would back that sentiment) and that others avoid such measures, but it is obviously foolish to assume so (as you point out we all know that "someone").
What may have appeared to be an excellent opportunity initially may end hurting in the long run. Recceguy's post made that more clear to me (which is helpful), as I had previously thought playing around with transfers would cut down on the wait, but would likely have repurcussions that outweigh the benefit of "getting in" quicker. Your sentiment is appreciated and well taken.
-Fergie
- Reaction score
- 265
- Points
- 980
Fergie said:
I trust that you are above those sorts of tactics. They're useless, really, because you eventually get found out to be a fraud and coffee table chit chat loves stories like these about abuse of a system, a system that all participants are involved in. Basically it starts to follow you around and you'll find that you lose credibility for everything - and right you should, hell, even here!
You're astute enough to figure out that any benefit you gain from plopping around will be done in, perhaps a few times over, by the methods you use...some people just aren't as bright as you are.
Cheers
I've searched the forum and could not find an answer to my question(s).
Here goes:
Does a DEO Intelligence Officer require a Masters degree before being accepted as a DEO for Intel? The Brochure says Masters (for DEO) and the page for Intelligence Officer itself (for DEO) says "undergraduate degree".
Feedback is appreciated.
Here goes:
Does a DEO Intelligence Officer require a Masters degree before being accepted as a DEO for Intel? The Brochure says Masters (for DEO) and the page for Intelligence Officer itself (for DEO) says "undergraduate degree".
Feedback is appreciated.
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 430
Courtesy of Google - site:forces.ca intelligence officer
First hit - FORCES.CA - Intelligence Officer
Fact sheet tab - http://www.forces.ca/en/job/intelligenceofficer-76#info-1
You're welcome.
First hit - FORCES.CA - Intelligence Officer
Fact sheet tab - http://www.forces.ca/en/job/intelligenceofficer-76#info-1
You're welcome.
Thank You, I appreciate the help.
Yes, I noticed it said undergraduate on the website. However, the brochure says this: "Direct Entry Officer – DEO applicants must hold a Master degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset." What you posted was qualifications requirements and this is on the next page (a few paragraphs under it). I will definitely talk to the RC tomorrow about whether or not the Master's is needed.
Yes, I noticed it said undergraduate on the website. However, the brochure says this: "Direct Entry Officer – DEO applicants must hold a Master degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset." What you posted was qualifications requirements and this is on the next page (a few paragraphs under it). I will definitely talk to the RC tomorrow about whether or not the Master's is needed.
I won't be saying that I found out the info from this site. On the CF officers page it says undergraduate degree (as one of the posters said) and it only says Master's in the brochure. So I will be comparing the info on the Forces official site compared to the official brochure for intel (the poster happened to post official info from the actual Forces intel officer webpage).
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 142
- Points
- 710
Using your Open Source Research skills is a must and you are not doing too well so far. If you have read any of the info posted on this (unofficial) site, you will see that INT is overborn in applicants. There is currently approx two years worth of people waiting to attempt to become INT officers. That means that the standards are going to be very high, and the failure rate will match that standard.
INT may no longer be recruiting off the street, and for there to be any openings for DEO they will probably be only for people who have actual intelligence backgrounds from previous service or another government agency.
If you are aspiring to become a "James Bond" you should probably look for a job in the motion picture industry, as INT professionals do nothing along those lines. INT Os and INT Ops do not have a "Licence to Kill", nor the mandate to spy on people. They collate information collected in reports from their sources: Armour and Infantry Recce, Snipers, CIMIC, Arty FOO/FAC, and numerous other agencies and organizations and then disseminate information to the Comd so (s)he can make decisions. They do not go out and actively gather information themselves. They sit at desks.
If you want a job in Intel their recruiting page is: JOBS AT INTEL.
INT may no longer be recruiting off the street, and for there to be any openings for DEO they will probably be only for people who have actual intelligence backgrounds from previous service or another government agency.
If you are aspiring to become a "James Bond" you should probably look for a job in the motion picture industry, as INT professionals do nothing along those lines. INT Os and INT Ops do not have a "Licence to Kill", nor the mandate to spy on people. They collate information collected in reports from their sources: Armour and Infantry Recce, Snipers, CIMIC, Arty FOO/FAC, and numerous other agencies and organizations and then disseminate information to the Comd so (s)he can make decisions. They do not go out and actively gather information themselves. They sit at desks.
If you want a job in Intel their recruiting page is: JOBS AT INTEL.
