Int Op trade tell me more and more reg force please

[ltmaverick25]

Thanks,
The PhD is up in the air right now.  Nothing like that would start until september, but it appears as if I would be on a BIOC in Jan 2011.  If thats the case, not nearly enough time to complete a PhD so its not practical to start.  If it appears that the course will be many years out then I will kick and scream to have my OJT become a PhD at RMC.  If the course does indeed happen sooner, then I will happily take a break from academics and look to be posted to RMC for something like that long after I hit Capt or Lt(N) and have at least one tour under my belt.  So one way or another ive decided that I will do a PhD, but my priority is the BIOC and getting the career progressed.  Oddly enough, ive heard that alot of the people waiting for BIOC right now have been passing their spots up because they liked the lifestyle on OJT and after BMOQ and CAP they are not in a hurry to do another course anytime soon, so I may even be able to squeeze in there sooner.

 

[George Wallace]

...........  Oddly enough, ive heard that alot of the people waiting for BIOC right now have been passing their spots up because they liked the lifestyle on OJT and after BMOQ and CAP they are not in a hurry to do another course anytime soon, so I may even be able to squeeze in there sooner.

Ah!  The "Phony INT OP/INT O" who has managed to get into a Trade, but never qualified.  Looks good on a CV/Resume until some diligent HR person checks knowledgeable references.    ;D

 

[Greymatters]

Ah!  The "Phony INT OP/INT O" who has managed to get into a Trade, but never qualified.  Looks good on a CV/Resume until some diligent HR person checks knowledgeable references.    ;D

Is that actually a common problem?  Wouldn't a simple check of qualification sheets/certificates/docs do the same thing?

 

[George Wallace]

Is that actually a common problem?  Wouldn't a simple check of qualification sheets/certificates/docs do the same thing?

Actually, it in all likelihood is.  A person joins a Unit X (Organization X) that is X Trade (Occupation).  They remain in said Unit/Organization for a couple of years.......in the Case of the CF, doing a BMQ and perhaps a SQ.  They wear the uniform of the organization.  They decide that they want a high paying or prestigious job at some other organization..........Say Border Services or Corel Corp or whatever.  On their CV/Resume they state that they were a member of Unit X for two years.  They conveniently omit the fact that they never attained the Qualification of Trade X.  References are checked.  Yes they did belong to Unit X.  The question now arises, "DID THE HR PERSON HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO INQUIRE IF THE APPLICANT HAD ATTAINED THE QUALIFICATION OF TRADE X?" or were they satisfied with the honest, but inaccurate, fact that the applicant was a member of Unit X?  This is the act of lying through omission.  These "Phonies" are everywhere and in every occupation.......usually identified by the amount of time they spend around the water cooler or having a smoke break...... ;D

Seriously though, they are everywhere.  You will even find one or two threads here on Army.ca dedicated to one or two of them, who the MSN have a propensity of using as talking heads ....... I mean Military Experts.  >

 

[Greymatters]

Ah, I see what you mean, I was thinking more in terms of employment applications for positions rather 'subject matter experts'...

 

[ltmaverick25]

Just to clarify, when I said some people were passing up spots for BIOC, this was not a permanent thing, rather just a means of extending their OJT by another 4 months or so.  I wasnt talking about guys trying to shirk the system by any means.

 

[George Wallace]

Just to clarify, when I said some people were passing up spots for BIOC, this was not a permanent thing, rather just a means of extending their OJT by another 4 months or so.  I wasnt talking about guys trying to shirk the system by any means.

Doesn't make sense to me.  Putting off a Crse for 4 months to continue OJT, when their next opportunity for a Crse may now become another eight months after that.  This could add up to a couple of years.  Is their OJT that valuable?  Is it even relevant?

 

[ltmaverick25]

Dont ask me, Im trying to get on a BIOC as soon as possible, not the opposite.  I have no idea why some would want to avoid it.  Seems rediculous to me, but, if it lets me do my course sooner, then I will find a way to live with it  ;D

 

[john10]

Actually, it in all likelihood is.  A person joins a Unit X (Organization X) that is X Trade (Occupation).  They remain in said Unit/Organization for a couple of years.......in the Case of the CF, doing a BMQ and perhaps a SQ.  They wear the uniform of the organization.  They decide that they want a high paying or prestigious job at some other organization..........Say Border Services or Corel Corp or whatever.  On their CV/Resume they state that they were a member of Unit X for two years.  They conveniently omit the fact that they never attained the Qualification of Trade X.  References are checked.  Yes they did belong to Unit X.  The question now arises, "DID THE HR PERSON HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO INQUIRE IF THE APPLICANT HAD ATTAINED THE QUALIFICATION OF TRADE X?" or were they satisfied with the honest, but inaccurate, fact that the applicant was a member of Unit X?  This is the act of lying through omission.  These "Phonies" are everywhere and in every occupation.......usually identified by the amount of time they spend around the water cooler or having a smoke break...... ;D

Seriously though, they are everywhere.  You will even find one or two threads here on Army.ca dedicated to one or two of them, who the MSN have a propensity of using as talking heads ....... I mean Military Experts.  >

This is a good point. So what would be appropriate to put in your CV until you're qualified? "Unqualified/untrained Int OP" ? Something like that?

 

[ltmaverick25]

I think you are missing the point George is trying to make.  Its not about what you put on your resume when applying to a civilian job that matters.  Put whatever you think helps you get the job...

George was complaining that there are some in the Int reserve that join the Int branch because it looks good on a resume.  Whether they get trained and qualified or not doesnt really matter, because these guys dont parade on a normal basis, nor do they have any intention of doing so.  They are just there because "it looks good".

If you are not one of those people then dont worry about any of this.  Just do your job and make a contribution to your unit.  If you do that, nobody is going to care what is on your resume.

 

[Greymatters]

Im noticing that many people are referring to CV's and resumes as if they are the same thing, when they are actually two different things.

I.E.
http://careerplanning.about.com/od/resumewriting/g/def_vitae.htm
Definition: A curriculum vitae is a written description of your work experience, educational background, and skills. Also called a CV, or simply a vitae, it is more detailed than a resume and is commonly used by those looking for work outside the U.S. and Australia. A curriculum vitae is also used by someone looking for an academic job, i.e. in a college or university.

In practical use, a resume is orientated towards your prospective employer and lists your education, qualifications, work experience, and transferable skills that apply to that position.  A CV generally does not focus on a specific employer, focuses less on experience and transferable skills, but more on what products, presentations, appearances, interviews, papers, and books you have developed/published/participated in. 

As for how to put Int trade experience into a CV or resume:
In a resume I would expect to see a reference to the unit or employer under 'work experience/work history', and a mention of the qualification(s) achieved under 'education' or 'qualifications'. 
In a CV, I wouldnt expect it to be mentioned at all, unless you had written an article or book on the subject. 

 

[ltmaverick25]

More simply put, a CV is an academic summary of your scholarship.  It is a resume of your published work and academic jobs.  No other jobs would be listed there.  As mentioned above, they are used by the academic community.  People who require a CV will also attach a resume to their application listing all of the other employment and experience they have as per the above post.

 

[john10]

I think you are missing the point George is trying to make.  Its not about what you put on your resume when applying to a civilian job that matters.  Put whatever you think helps you get the job...

George was complaining that there are some in the Int reserve that join the Int branch because it looks good on a resume.  Whether they get trained and qualified or not doesnt really matter, because these guys dont parade on a normal basis, nor do they have any intention of doing so.  They are just there because "it looks good".

If you are not one of those people then dont worry about any of this.  Just do your job and make a contribution to your unit.  If you do that, nobody is going to care what is on your resume.

No, I did not miss his point.

He was making a point about presenting your role in the Canadian Forces with utmost fortrightness (a point I've seen him make before), and I was wondering how you should do that if you're not yet qualified in your trade.

 

[George Wallace]

No, I did not miss his point.

He was making a point about presenting your role in the Canadian Forces with utmost fortrightness (a point I've seen him make before), and I was wondering how you should do that if you're not yet qualified in your trade.

OK.  Say I tried to become a Pilot, but never got the qualifications.  Would it be proper to say I was a Pilot, just because I did some of the Training?  No.

 

[IntelGirl]

I talked to my recruit officer and he said it would be difficult to get into, would that be because of high demand?

I'm planning on Artillery if Int Ops doesn't work out.

 

[futuresapper]

If you haven't already, you should check out forces.ca.  It says that Int Op is difficult to get into without prior military experiance or know how.  I'm sure others can explain it better and get into detail. I'm just going by forces.ca. Hope that may help a little.

Edit: I was pretty vague so here's what I found from forces.ca


QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS
INT OPs must be able to maintain and operate Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I) Systems. They must have a superior ability to collect, evaluate, analyse and integrate information and intelligence. They must be inquisitive, accurate, possess a superior memory for detail and be objective when processing intelligence. INT OPs must be able to work with a minimum of supervision, always exercising sound judgement, initiative and resourcefulness. They must possess superior oral and written communication skills.

INT OPs must have fundamental knowledge of military intelligence, gained through formal courses and professional development.

Entry Plans: The Intelligence Operator occupation is usually available through Occupation Transfer. Preferred candidates should have at least a high school diploma or equivalent. Knowledge of other languages, multi-cultural experience and operational experience are considered an asset.

Other applicants to be considered are:

Civilian personnel who have formerly served in the CF

Component Transfer applicants who are re-enrolling or transferring from the Reserve

 

[ltmaverick25]

Becoming an intelligence operator is a difficult process for several reasons.  The intelligence branch is relatively small compared to other military occupations therefore the amount of positions available is limited.  Also, intelligence used to be closed off to civilians coming in off the street.  Only existing members of the CF were able to apply.  That had changed recently in order to address needs of a quickly growing branch; however, it has also made clear the steep learning curb for those with no prior military exposure.  It can be pretty tough to stand around a map looking at troop dispositions, while trying to offer thoughtful assessments when candidates have no former military service or training.  For all those reasons, and others I forgot to mention, intelligence is a difficult trade to get into coming in off the street.

As far as I am aware, reserve units are still pretty eager to recruit able candidates. It is often easier to join through the reserves, get qualified, and get some experience under your belt and then component transfer to the reg force.  In that case your competition would shrink quite a bit, given that you would already be a qualified Int Op.

Hope this helps.

 

[Otis]

LtM: Do you have a reference for Direct Entry of Int Op?

I'm not questioning your information, I'm just wondering where you found it because all I can find is evidence of a PLANNED Int Op - Direct Entry Trial, I can't find any messages inplementing it (unlike the AES Op - DE Trial, which is in full effect)

According to the DPM Pol Intranet site, Int Op is still not open to DE. According to the eRHB (electronic Recruiters Handbook) on the recruiting site, there is a planned DE trial for Int Op, but no details yet (education requirements, TOS etc)

Please advise.

 

[The_Dictat]

I haven't heard of the DE Int Op trial for a while.  But I know that there is no more direct entry Int Officer positions for the reg force this year.  They only take up to 6 candidates per year and they usually have masters in poli sci or inter'l relations.

Yes, Reserve Units do recruit from the street as it is difficult to meet the growth from trade transfers.  The time it takes for a recruit to get trained to Int Op (up to 3 years) compensates from the lack of experience as they get OJT and other military training.  It's not perfect but meets the needs.

Intel Girl:  If you want to join Intelligence, you can as a reservist Int Op then transfer later on to reg force.  You will have to contact your local Reserve Int Company to check for availability of positions.  I know that some of them are close to full manning.

Good luck

 

[George Wallace]

Yes, Reserve Units do recruit from the street as it is difficult to meet the growth from trade transfers.  The time it takes for a recruit to get trained to Int Op (up to 3 years) compensates from the lack of experience as they get OJT and other military training.  It's not perfect but meets the needs.

Yes, but they may be stopping.  Sorry but I disagree with you statement.  Three years training as an Int Op does not give anyone the experience that one learns in the Cbt Arms about how the Army operates.  An Int Op who has no idea of the capabilities of the troops that they deal with, really can pose a problem.  Don't ever think that BMQ and SQ will give anyone experience or "Field Time".