Insufficient Weapons/Ammo?

[George Wallace]

I really can not comment on stopping power etc of a .45 vs a 9mm, as I only shoot what the army gives me.

But if I were trying to give a credable argument about handguns, I would not be caught dead in holding my handgun in that leaned back stance you appear to be in, in your avatar picture. Actually, I would be never caught in that stance with any gun in my hands, lest I end up on my ass.

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice the poor stance.

 

[Big Red]

I've seen overpenetration first hand many times with 9mm on a number of different targets. It's the main complaint about the round.

Are these targets paper or badguys? Unless they are humans or reasonable facsimiles then you have nothing to base this complaint on.

I know we probably won't see the juicy .45 round ... probably at all, as I think it's really being phased out.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.  The .45 is NOT being phased out of use with other forces.

As others have said, it's hard to take your opinion on this seriously as you've never carried a weapon in combat and it appears you have no formal handgun training (judging by your stance).

My opinion on 9mm vs. 45- I've never felt 'outgunned' carrying a 9mm. My pistol is my secondary most times anyways. I think the near double capacity of most 9mms to a .45 will make up for whatever difference there is in terminal ballistics. I do prefer the 1911 because it 'points' well for me and it is also easy to conceal if needed. The fact that guys with a lot more trigger time than us choose to carry it lends the 1911 credibility.  Plus it looks cooler.

 

[Fry]

Nope, I never been in combat. I offered my opinion based on what I've seen and you're certainly welcome to offer your opinion as well. Overpenetration in hard targets is what I was referring to. The 9mm is certainly a fine round, but I'm one of the big .45 fans. The ongoing debate about 9mm vs .45 will never end, both have ups and downs.

With regards to the picture, that the first clip I ever fired... a long while back... it certainly taught me that handgun shooting is like learning all over again.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Fry these gentlemen are not just offering their opinion they are offering their experience...if you have a degree of common sense would realize how your "opinion" is really looking right now....

 

[1feral1]

.

With regards to the picture, that the first clip I ever fired...

Errrr, its called a magazine!

How long have you been shooting?

At least your profile is honest, but take a moment to learn for others on here that have done much more than target shoot.

Remember Fry, its your integrity, not ours.


Wes

PS

Bad stance.

 

[Fry]

For sure. I certainly realize that many on here have been shooting longer than I have, at more than just targets and game. Hats off to them for that. I've been shooting for 17-18 years (since I was 3-4, but never really got serious until about 10-12 years ago. My pistol shooting has come a long way since that picture.  I still love the .45acp cartridge though 

 

[1feral1]

For sure. I certainly realize that many on here have been shooting longer than I have, at more than just targets and game. Hats off to them for that. I've been shooting for 17-18 years (since I was 3-4, but never really got serious until about 10-12 years ago. My pistol shooting has come a long way since that picture.  I still love the .45acp cartridge though 

Come on Fry, 3 or 4? I think thats a crock!

What parent would had a firearm arm to some one that young (even under strict supervision)?? Ya, and I am from Redneckville Saskatchewan too, and that would not even be acceptable!

I was about 9 when I got my first .177 pellet rifle, not that it matters, I've got nothing to prove on here.

Second, the matter is not how long you have been shooting, but rather in profession which involves the responsibility of carrying a loaded pistol in the line of one's occupation. As in carrying one in theatre, with the potential to use it, or that you have used it in the defence of your life.

Personally carrying a pistol in a locked carrying case, in the trunk of your car, enroute to a bonified range, then wearing a holster to plink targets at said range, then encase the weapon for the trip home does not qualify on anything shy of passing a simple test to become a pistol club member.

These people who have 'opinions' (as you refer to) are 'over there' right now in harms way, and not on the way to a range where their ownly worry is a flat tyre or speeding ticket.

Get a grip, and stop the BS, like I said its your integrity on here, not ours, and yours is doing the 'Titanic' right now.

 

[Pte_Martin]

Maybe he was one of those really super smart kids, but instead of being able to play the piano or be good at math he was good at shooting. It could happen.

 

[Fry]

Come on Fry, 3 or 4? I think thats a crock!

What parent would had a firearm arm to some one that young (even under strict supervision)?? Ya, and I am from Redneckville Saskatchewan too, and that would not even be acceptable!

I was about 9 when I got my first .177 pellet rifle, not that it matters, I've got nothing to prove on here.

Second, the matter is not how long you have been shooting, but rather in profession which involves the responsibility of carrying a loaded pistol in the line of one's occupation. As in carrying one in theatre, with the potential to use it, or that you have used it in the defence of your life.

Personally carrying a pistol in a locked carrying case, in the trunk of your car, enroute to a bonified range, then wearing a holster to plink targets at said range, then encase the weapon for the trip home does not qualify on anything shy of passing a simple test to become a pistol club member.

These people who have 'opinions' (as you refer to) are 'over there' right now in harms way, and not on the way to a range where their ownly worry is a flat tyre or speeding ticket.

Get a grip, and stop the BS, like I said its your integrity on here, not ours, and yours is doing the 'Titanic' right now.

I shot and hunted game at a very early age Wes, and have certainly bagged game before I was 9. Of course at the earlier years I was under extreme supervision and didn't carry myself. I could barely hold a firearm when I was first exposed. But I was exposed to shooting at a young age and have been shooting since I can remember.

Have you not read my previous post? I agree with what you said earlier. Chill out.

Second, the matter is not how long you have been shooting, but rather in profession which involves the responsibility of carrying a loaded pistol in the line of one's occupation. As in carrying one in theatre, with the potential to use it, or that you have used it in the defence of your life.

The thread WAS about insufficent weapons/ammo. I mentioned that the .45 is still a fine round, even though 9mm has become a little more popular.

I didn't post here as a 'big shot better than you' nobody civillian. I certainly appreciate the work our fine troops are doing/have done overseas and at home. Are they more knowledgable about this topic than I am? Certainly. Does that mean I know nothing about pistol rounds though? No. Can I offer my opinion? Sure. Based on my experience with firearms,(which again is quite limited compared to some individuals on this board), I post. Agree or disagree, that's up to you.

 

[1feral1]

I shot and hunted game at a very early age Wes, and have certainly bagged game before I was 9. Of course at the earlier years I was under extreme supervision and didn't carry myself. I could barely hold a firearm when I was first exposed. But I was exposed to shooting at a young age and have been shooting since I can remember.

1. Chill out.

2. The thread WAS about insufficent weapons/ammo. I mentioned that the .45 is still a fine round, even though 9mm has become a little more popular.

1. You're the one who stuck his foot in his mouth, not me, so DON'T tell me to chill out.

2. I never thought 9mm was ever unpopular both in civvy world and elsewhere. When I first started competitively shooting IPSC in 1979, it was .45ACP which was not popular. The 11.43 rd was more of a US thing, however it was still encountered at local events, but who am I, you seem to be the SME here.

 

[muskrat89]

Anyhooo....

Let's stick to the topic at hand guys. Personality conflicts, misunderstandings, and other tit-for-tat conversations can go to PMs

Thanks in advance

Army.ca Staff

 

[1feral1]

Too right!

I was barked at in public, so I wanted to politely reply in public, as I am not a soft target.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Fry]

Well what changes, if any, with regards to weapons/ammo would anyone like to see?

 

[KevinB]

Well this was a US Military based thread. 
  Few posters have experience with what they issue -- and I would further guess that not a lot of posters have had the ability to use this kit in an operational environment -- and without the enduser point of view -- your pissing in the wind.

 

[Pte AJB]

"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."

Leading statistics here. Those that attach weapon accessories are likely those that will be needing them. The more rounds downrange, the more stoppages you get.

 

[Pte AJB]

I know I'm replying to my own post and all, but this has been bugging me. Reading the study, only 64% report being issued a cleaning kit with their weapon. (p.26)  Worse, 45% conduct a complete teardown cleaning of their weapon once a week, while only 21% conduct a quick wipedown once a week! (p.20 of http://images.military.com/pix/defensetech/cna_m4_study_d0015259_a2.pdf) I have NO operational experience, but I know that is not enough.

How many of these failures are due to improper cleaning? Recalling the Jessica Lynch story, these troops were unable to defend themselves due to their weapons being in a negligently dirty state. Education on proper cleaning techniques, and some cleaning kits would remedy a lot of these reported failures.

The C7 and it's family is old and worn out (the design is 40+ years old!). I know I and others would love it if the CF picked up some HK417's.  ;D Until that magical day, that means using the C7 and family, and unfortunately cleaning the suckers a whole lot. 

 

[Dissident]

The C7 and it's family is old and worn out (the design is 40+ years old!). I know I and others would love it if the CF picked up some HK417's.  ;D Until that magical day, that means using the C7 and family, and unfortunately cleaning the suckers a whole lot. 

Oh boy. If that wasn't an invitation for a smackdown...

 

[Pte AJB]

Oh boy. If that wasn't an invitation for a smackdown...

After reading my post I should clarify that I wasn't directing my comments to those here on the forum, they've forgotten more than I know, but rather to a situation in general alluded to in the original document posted.

 

[KevinB]

The issue you (5thHorse) are refering to has been beaten to death on the forums.
The problem remains that some shitpump that won't clean their weapon in an operational theatre, wont clean it regardless what weapons system they are issued.
  Poor personal admin and lack of responsibility does not get corrected by a new weapon, it needs to be fixed by the NCO corps...

 

[Pte AJB]

Seen and in agreement.