Instructors giving students pushups - yay or nay?

[pbi]

When I came on board in the Reserve in 1974, giving out pushups was pretty common (instructors never joined in...). It was done both as individual and collective punishment, but to be honest I can't say it did any harm. In fact, I think as recruits we felt secretly proud of it. When I transferred to the RegF in 1982, pushups were still being given out, as was collective punishment. Again, I don't think we were harmed by either.
Where the wheels fell off everything was, IMHO, (and like with so many other things....sigh...) some vicious-minded idiots overdid it and the the GIORM (Giant Institutional Over Reaction Machine) kicked in. Even if we could demonstrate a value for pushups as "punishment", or some benefit to collective punishment, the GIORM has done its work well and we would not even get a hearing. People would clap their hands over their ears and run shrieking from the room. (Unless, of course, they were wearing combat boots in which case they would walk briskly).


Cheers

 

[GO!!!]

some vicious-minded idiots overdid it ...

And there's the rub.

The problem is that there is not enough oversight on the instructors at the schools, too much of the training, and especially in the area of "corrective training" is left to unimaginative instructors, afraid to rock the boat with anything too innovative, and too lazy or unable to do the pushups with their troops.

When the senior NCO staff teaching in WATC on a JLC is unable, to the man, to run one, ONE km continously without stopping to puke, smoke or die, there is a problem. They are reduced to correcting with the pen.

My suggestion is that there be rules and limits put on corrective measures, and set in stone PT, for instructors and students.

An example might be that a minor infraction (inspection violations for example) would be punished with 25 pushups per, to a max of 100 per half day/ 200 per day, any more and the instructors must participate.

For PT, the Royal Marines use a set PT schedule, and a breakdown of each exercise done in each period, in order. This would keep both the instructors in shape and get the students there. The guesswork involved in course PT means that the PT standards are entirely dependant on the staff, who may simply choose to forgo it completely, or run such a poor class there is no benefit, or concentrate on one area (running) to the detriment of all others.

My suggestions would remove the propensity of specific instructors to sadistically torture their charges, while also providing a minimum of PT for both the taught and the teachers.

The corrective pushups could be added to the TP so that if the candidates complained, they would be admitting that they were unable to complete the course requirements, and failing themselves.

Thoughts?

 

[Sharpey]

The Army today kills me. On my QL2 I was doing pushups on the Matawa on gravel roads and running on the beaches in combat boots! Then the PC Gods stepped in...

The Army is in no way supposed to be easy, it's the Army! I say, suck it up! Not to sound like the jerk instructor, but isn't pushing you to your limits and increasing motivation what basic training is? All the courses I have taken in Pet particularly were the hardest running (of that course) during that particular summer...do you know the sence of accomplishment I now have from passing those courses? Top candidate on one of them. I am a skinny, non-muscular pathetic looking guy and I managed to do it. As an instructor, I get pride out of turning a regular joe into a Soldier. A Soldier is a person who at times can go above and beyond the norm a human body is used to.  

I am not saying torture the poor troops, not saying that at all. I don't do to my troops anything I wouldn't want to do myself. But I do believe in pushing them to their limits, increasing motivation, and team building. Pushups I see as physical fitness (I personally suck at them, but still do them) and a motivational tool. Pushups are not to well liked by new recruits normally, so doing whatever caused the "motivational training push ups" would cause them to refrain from doing it again. No?

One approach we tried last year, was instead of doing pushups (when "motivational training" was required), we went for a ruckmarch, small one, maybe 1 km. Midway, we practiced Individual Field Movements...alot....then walked back to the shacks. It was tough for them, tiring, but in the long run, they will benefit, even if they don't realize it at the time. If a troop on a tour one day says, God...glad MCpl Sharpe pounded that into my head on Basic... you get the idea.

I believe in motivational training only if it is necessary and as long as it serves a purpose and benefits the troops being trained. If it is not required because the troops are learning the material and not dinking around, then they must have gained respect for their instructors and actually enjoy turning into a Soldier. I've seen instructors dish out "male sex organ" for no reason...guess what instructors lost the respect of their troops?

To sum up my blabber. To the new guys out there reading this. Most instructors these days arn't out to kill you. They are there to train you. We have weird and sometimes original ways of showing it, but that's what we are there for, each instructor has different techniques. You should be able to pick out the instructors that are there to jerk you around. If you can't deal with it, then yes, the PC Army system will take care of it.

 

[rw4th]

some vicious-minded idiots overdid it ...

Ding, ding ding ... we have a winner.

I think everybody has heard some of the horror stories. Personally, I've seen instructors tie a candidate to a chin up bar and leave him there "until he manages to get himself up", I've seen candidates made to puke by forcing them to have alot of food for lunch (yes, the instructors forced each candidate to eat at least 2 helpings) and then subjecting them immediatly to intense "motivational training", and well ... I could keep listing the abuses, but suffice to say it's that kind of unconstructive "training' which has resulted in the system you see today.

 

[ZipperHead]

The Army is in no way supposed to be easy, it's the Army! I say, suck it up! Not to sound like the jerk instructor, but isn't pushing you to your limits and increasing motivation what basic training is?

Above quote from Sharpie

Ahhh, pushing soldiers to their limits....... That is exactly the point, methinks. I would be willing to bet fairly good money that the average soldier who has gone through the "PC, safety before anything, I'll call the Ombudsman if you do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable" army has NEVER pushed themselves to the point where they literally could not do one more pushup, even with a gun to their head. Or marched until their legs collapsed. Or patrolled until they were seeing double. That's pushing yourself. To the limit. So you know where your breaking point is. Too many people quit anything when it becomes uncomfortable, and too many DS/"supervisors" are worried that something bad might happen, like the person may die. That probably falls into the .1% chance of ever happening. Let's focus on the 99.9% chance that it won't happen and do it. Unless you were literally "beasting" someone, the likelyhood of something "bad" happening is negligible, so why worry about it.

From what I have seen of soldier's coming through the system, they seem fitter, more motivated, and ready to take what is dished out, and actually be challenged. So that they ARE proud to go home on leave with a 6-pack and rippling pectorals to show off, not a beer gut from sitting around playing XBox. Imagine that. Pride in your job. Who woulda thunk. Now if the PC do-gooders could clue in and realize that we're training soldiers to fight wars, and not be Generation XBox in CADPAT, maybe we'll achieve results.

Fight the good fight.......

Al

 

[GO!!!]

Above quote from Sharpie

we're training soldiers to fight wars, and not be Generation XBox in CADPAT, maybe we'll achieve results.

Fight the good fight.......

Al

I guess it is a bit better than "generation high school dropout"

That seems to be the problem with training a thinking soldier....some of the time they out-think those who out rank them.

As for "generation X-box", I've heard more than enough of that spouting from the slack jawed, mouth breathing, IQ-matching-their-shoe-size NCOs who are unable to unravel the mysteries of the 77 set, never mind figure out a dual 522 radio setup with CI, crypto and amplifier.

The same guys who go to the field and never use a GPS, not even for practice, because they are too proud to ask a "nintendo generation" softie how to do it. Whose solution to comms going down is to threaten the signaller with a charge.

Without the technologically savvy troops that are coming through the door today, our army would be in even worse shape, as our training on the high tech equipment we do have is sorely lacking.

You can always make someone fitter, you can rarely make them smarter.

 

[ZipperHead]

Without the technologically savvy troops that are coming through the door today, our army would be in even worse shape, as our training on the high tech equipment we do have is sorely lacking.

You can always make someone fitter, you can rarely make them smarter.

I agree.... more or less. I was tech savvy when I joined the army 18 years ago. I started using computers in the late 70's, and had a bit of a stop-drop after I joined the army, and picked it up again in the early to mid 90's. There aren't a whole lot of older guys (I consider myself an older guy, I guess) that embrace the technology, but there are more and more coming around to it, out of neccesity and/or the realization that it won't go away.

Having said that, just because a person is tech savvy doesn't make them smart: today's techno-geeks are yesterday's muscle car tinkerer's..... Just because a person can get a high score on HALO2  doesn't mean he's any better at using the tech gear that we have (GPS, surveillance gear, weapons systems). UNDERSTANDING the technology and USING the technology can be two different things. I have had an easier time teaching the GPS to older soldiers who understand the basics of map & compass, than to young guys who can punch the buttons quickly but don't understand the concept of grids and azimuths.

There are some pretty old fella's reading these boards because they understand the technology, and many members of Gen XBox who don't know shite from shinola, and would rather get hammered and beat their head against a wall..... I do know a lot of older types who refuse to learn any of the technology, because they are afraid of looking stupid (probably because they are stupid) and probably think it will go away. Good luck.....

If you can get people "on board" to the technology and get them on board to the low-tech aspects of soldiering (fitness, battlecraft, common sense), all the better. But to say either one, by themselves, is better than the other doesn't neccesarily work. A super-fit soldier who can hump all the Surveillance gear in a Coyote to an OP, but can't set it up and operate is no better or worse than a slug who can't move a single component out to the OP because they are unfit, and therefore can't get it operational.

Al