Instructors giving students pushups - yay or nay?
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negative reinforcement = physical punishment
positive reinforcement = no punishment.
positive reinforcement = no punishment.
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How about:
Soldier excels at his job = more responsibility, more work. Or, in other words, promotion. Not really a positive at all, is it?
Soldier excels at his job = more responsibility, more work. Or, in other words, promotion. Not really a positive at all, is it?
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"be the grey man, you must. Strive for mediocrity, you should." 
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You better watch yourself. But as far as I know, there is nothing in writing. I spent a few summers down at the Leadership school. And we didn't have to do pushups if it was Extra training. For you cannot supervise the troops. I do know where this is from and going.
All I say is suck back.
I remember a lot on my many courses. If I had gone to Depot, you would not have to ask this question. To me more the better, but thats me. Twice investigated, and never guilty.
:evil: :tank:
All I say is suck back.
I remember a lot on my many courses. If I had gone to Depot, you would not have to ask this question. To me more the better, but thats me. Twice investigated, and never guilty.
:evil: :tank:
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But are those push up proper PSP ones?
I could pump out 50 push ups, or so I thought, no problems. Until I had to get assessed. Then I found out that PSP staff enforces the proper "footing". Didn't do as well as I should have.
I do think push ups can reenforce a message. drop a weapon=20 push up.
I could pump out 50 push ups, or so I thought, no problems. Until I had to get assessed. Then I found out that PSP staff enforces the proper "footing". Didn't do as well as I should have.
I do think push ups can reenforce a message. drop a weapon=20 push up.
medicineman
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As one of the dudes/ettes said - they aren't punishment, they just make you stronger. Hence the term corrective training - they are correcting an upper body strength/endurance problem and improving blood flow to the brain, therefore making the person more awake and hopefully in tune with what they are supposed to be doing. ;D
MM
MM
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I prefer the use of push-ups in the"payment" sense. For example, when working with ropes, if you step on the rope, you pay with 25. If you do improper drills on basic para, you pay with 25. I have been in numerous, and I mean numerous, "cock" sessions where we do many, many push-ups coupled with the 5th point of flight procedure. Did we think it was harassment?....Nope. Did it suck?....Yup. It really sucks when the instructors switch off when they get tired! The real problem is our gentle, tolerant, non-feeling hurting basic training/battle school. Prospective non-hackers are making it into the mainstream and they think it's (supposed to be) all peaches and cream. Wake-up! This is the Army, if the thought of doing a few push-ups frightens you, maybe you should re-think your career choice. I have no sympathy for anyone (especially in the infantry) who cannot pull off a minimum of 25 respectable push-ups.
ArmyRick
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If you cry and whine about doing some extra push ups/leg raises/etc for corrective training then wait a minute and let me call the Wa-wa-w-a-WAMBULANCE!!! Seriously to modern troopies going through training, suck it up butter cup and get on with soldiering.
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Having had to do a few push-ups from time to time, I never saw anything wrong with them when used in moderation as a quick reminder to not repeat the mistake as well as having a minor PT benefit. I think the real issue is to use a form of corrective memory training that reminds people not to foul up and corrects the fault, but doesn't abuse the soldier. I once saw a young SYEP recruit running around in a circle in a field. I thought that this was a little strange, so I went to ask him what was up. It was a very hot day and he was wearing a full pack. I asked him what he was doing and he said that his course officer didn't think his boots were shiny enough so he had to go run around in circles in this field with full pack. Apparently, he had been doing this for about an hour. Besides being astounded, I ordered him to go get some water and I thenwent to have a meaningful talk with his officer. Pack drill went out a long time ago, because it is abuse, pure and simple. To see it merely 20 years ago in Canada was a real shock.
As was mentioned, a good approach is to provide training that corrects the fault. It was pretty clear to me why there was low retention of the SYEP types from that particular course. The training needs to be challenging and it needs to be fun. Good intelligent leadership works, man-handling and abuse is just a cover for lack of instructional ability and poor leadership skills.
As was mentioned, a good approach is to provide training that corrects the fault. It was pretty clear to me why there was low retention of the SYEP types from that particular course. The training needs to be challenging and it needs to be fun. Good intelligent leadership works, man-handling and abuse is just a cover for lack of instructional ability and poor leadership skills.
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My unit still implements pack drill, however, whether it is conducted with rucksack or in FFO is for the BOS to decide. Not that it matters, as most defaulters run to the UMS to get a no drill/marching chit minutes after they get off charge parade.
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..who then should have said "See this large cross son...."
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Flogging as a punishment in British service ended in 1881, and Field Punishment no. 1 generally ended in 1917 (that's the old treat of being shackled to a wheel in cruciform fashion for two hours a day for periods of up to a few months). Sometimes old No. 1 included being exposed to enemy fire or being forced to be up front in an assault.
There is more than one definition of the term "pack drill". It can mean repeated inspections of full kit, laid out as required. It also means the archaic punishment of having someone run in circles, usually around a parade square with his rifle and a rucksack weighted down with 50lbs or so of rocks, until they fall down. GO!!, is that what you mean by defaulters doing pack drill? I have certainly had defaulters do the first version but certainly not the second. Correct me if I'm mistaken here but I understood that the second version of pack drill left the CF in the 1960s.
Kipling wrote about it in a poem called "Cells", here's the first stanza:
I've a head like a concertina: I've a tongue like a button-stick:
I've a mouth like an old potato, and I'm more than a little sick,
But I've had my fun o' the Corp'ral's Guard: I've made the cinders fly,
And I'm here in the Clink for a thundering drink
and blacking the Corporal's eye.
With a second-hand overcoat under my head,
And a beautiful view of the yard,
O it's pack-drill for me and a fortnight's C.B.
For "drunk and resisting the Guard!"
Mad drunk and resisting the Guard --
'Strewth, but I socked it them hard!
So it's pack-drill for me and a fortnight's C.B.
For "drunk and resisting the Guard."
Going for a jog in FFO is training; punishing someone by having them run around in circles until they drop doesn't serve any useful purpose in my opinion. I believe that if there is to be punishment it should be fair, quickly implemented, and serve to correct the deficiency. I have trouble thinking of a circumstance where what I saw would be appropriate and it certainly was not an appropriate punishment for the offence of boots not being shiny enough. There is definitely a time and place for appropriate punishment, but let's not mix up corrective training and punishment with abuse or even torture. These ways of doing things are far from doing a few push-ups.
There is more than one definition of the term "pack drill". It can mean repeated inspections of full kit, laid out as required. It also means the archaic punishment of having someone run in circles, usually around a parade square with his rifle and a rucksack weighted down with 50lbs or so of rocks, until they fall down. GO!!, is that what you mean by defaulters doing pack drill? I have certainly had defaulters do the first version but certainly not the second. Correct me if I'm mistaken here but I understood that the second version of pack drill left the CF in the 1960s.
GO!!! said:
Kipling wrote about it in a poem called "Cells", here's the first stanza:
I've a head like a concertina: I've a tongue like a button-stick:
I've a mouth like an old potato, and I'm more than a little sick,
But I've had my fun o' the Corp'ral's Guard: I've made the cinders fly,
And I'm here in the Clink for a thundering drink
and blacking the Corporal's eye.
With a second-hand overcoat under my head,
And a beautiful view of the yard,
O it's pack-drill for me and a fortnight's C.B.
For "drunk and resisting the Guard!"
Mad drunk and resisting the Guard --
'Strewth, but I socked it them hard!
So it's pack-drill for me and a fortnight's C.B.
For "drunk and resisting the Guard."
Going for a jog in FFO is training; punishing someone by having them run around in circles until they drop doesn't serve any useful purpose in my opinion. I believe that if there is to be punishment it should be fair, quickly implemented, and serve to correct the deficiency. I have trouble thinking of a circumstance where what I saw would be appropriate and it certainly was not an appropriate punishment for the offence of boots not being shiny enough. There is definitely a time and place for appropriate punishment, but let's not mix up corrective training and punishment with abuse or even torture. These ways of doing things are far from doing a few push-ups.
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Since no one has found any "documentation" on this, I am of the mind that whoever thought up the idea that the instructor must do pushups with his/her troops, just didn't think it out.
If you are leading PT, by all means get your lazy a** down and pump em off. If its a form of discipline then you should be supervising for proper technique and letting others know that you are disciplining the soldier and not competing with him/her.
Not only does this form of discipline strengthen the upper body but also the mind. If you give out 25 push ups to a soldier and after 5 good ones, they quit and say screw this, you have just identified a bigger problem to deal with.
Honestly how many of you can think back with a grin to days of helmet pushups where as soon as the PI turned his back you locked your elbows but kept counting them out.
In the Arty we had a similar form of punishment in the form of the hand spike. If after applying an elevation or bearing to the gun, you forgot to level your bubbles, you would grab the handspike(A heavy length of metal used to move the gun trails) hold it over your head and run around the gun saying "Im a duck and im all f***ed up" until ordered to stop.
Nobody ever died from this type of corrective punishment and everyone learned their lesson which is the entire objective.
If you are leading PT, by all means get your lazy a** down and pump em off. If its a form of discipline then you should be supervising for proper technique and letting others know that you are disciplining the soldier and not competing with him/her.
Not only does this form of discipline strengthen the upper body but also the mind. If you give out 25 push ups to a soldier and after 5 good ones, they quit and say screw this, you have just identified a bigger problem to deal with.
Honestly how many of you can think back with a grin to days of helmet pushups where as soon as the PI turned his back you locked your elbows but kept counting them out.
In the Arty we had a similar form of punishment in the form of the hand spike. If after applying an elevation or bearing to the gun, you forgot to level your bubbles, you would grab the handspike(A heavy length of metal used to move the gun trails) hold it over your head and run around the gun saying "Im a duck and im all f***ed up" until ordered to stop.
Nobody ever died from this type of corrective punishment and everyone learned their lesson which is the entire objective.
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