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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

Underway,

Why can the French operate lightly armoured vehicles in their colonial wars without them being constantly destroyed by IEDs? What differences are there between the French's conflicts versus the US in the Middle East?
Mali does present a considerable IED threat.

Their light vehicles can go almost anywhere (I think we’ve all seen videos of their super light tanks basically parked almost vertically after reversing up a decent gradient) - their vehicles can go basically anywhere.

Underway is correct. Heavy firepower on light vehicles seems to work well for them.


We should also remember though, both Iraq and Afghanistan were drawn out conflicts with plenty of western forces going about those two countries. A lot of France’s bushfire ‘wars’ tend to be short interventions, if they go dynamic. (Problems aren’t short lived, but action taken to temporarily deal with the escalation tends to be short lived.)

The IED threat in Iraq and Afghanistan was substantially higher than any other conflicts happening at the time - precisely because we provided our with a target rich force, and they knew our LAVs & convoys would stick to the roads unless in a TIC. So not only were we a decently target rich enemy for them, we were predictable to an extent.

They also knew that western media was moreso their ally than ours. Killing 4 or 6 western soldiers in an IED strike would prompt outcry from that country’s citizenry, which would eventually have the country pull its forces. And the best way for them to do it was with IEDs.


The insurgency in Mali - as far as I understand anyway - isn’t that sophisticated yet.


0.02 (I could be totally wrong about the above, just thoughts)
 
Assuming this is correct and not just recency bias (ie: we don't see the French news so the perceived risk may be different than what it actually is).

This is just a guess based on what I have read. It comes down to the terrain and population. The French conflict in Mali has much less urban terrain to fight in than Afghanistan and Iraq did. And what urban terrain there is, its not 3-foot thick mud buildings that double as bunkers.

It likely means that the French can choose different routes to their targets and thus avoid obvious IED emplacement. The second thing is that the conflict is ethnic in nature. This means that the local population may very well be on the side of the French as opposed to Iraq/Afghanistan where the local population was often ambivalent or hostile. The major urban centres are pro-French.

/complete supposition
We posted at the same time Underway.

Underway worded what I was trying to say much more succinctly.
 
The purpose-built gun-armed TD made sense for a short period in WWII (a period before it was actually developed and deployed); it no longer does.

The point was to put a weapon powerful enough to defeat tanks on a tracked chassis so that it could move into and out of action rapidly (more so than towed guns) and displace to new positions on the battlefield. Today a powerful enough gun can be put into a heavily armoured, closed-top, properly turreted tank with high battlefield mobility and speed.

The other piece of equipment that has the requisite mobility and hitting power is the attack helicopter - the true successor to the tracked TD.

Whatever anti-armour capability Canada has must firstly be properly employable for defence against armour other than in massed tank-heavy formations. For the latter, we need a doctrine (and allies) but not another over-specialized piece of equipment. If a wheeled gun is wanted, other reasons should (must) be found.
 
The Army Commander in 2019 referred to the "missing middle" with regards to our Sgt to Maj level of leadership. I just came from an operational garrison, and we had rifle companies commanded by Lieutenants with a single Lieutenant as the 2IC as the rest of the leadership was tasked out to capacity building operations and missions with a heavy draw on leadership. My Garrison support unit was also critically short of Sgts to Majs. You can't just snap your fingers and draw 300 MCpl to Maj PYs out of Ottawa and have leaders who would go on those missions.
I guess that's my own fault for saying "Ottawa" when I should have said "headquarters". IMHO we do not need four static divisional headquarters nor ten static brigade headquarters and I'm wondering if even CMTC is still a necessary thing or becoming an unaffordable luxury. What use is there for these entities if the deployable field force becomes tiny and non deployable as well?

If capacity building is so important (and I actually agree with you that we should have an entity that is specifically oriented towards that and tasked with it) then the manning for it has to come out of somewhere. If not the headquarters then the field units are the only solution.

Where you and I diverge in this discussion is that I do believe that one can just "snap your fingers" and reduce the size of the headquarters. The problem is no one will commit to snapping their fingers. Instead they sit around in committees and let every HQ department justify their existence and the need to keep their departments filled while operational companies are run by lieutenants. One only needs to look at the limited outcome that came out of Leslie's report and his statistics of what expanded disproportionately during the Afghan period to see where all the PYs have gone.

The issue is that when you are short of folks, which the Army appears to be, then you need to take an appetite suppressant somewhere. Real defence outputs are not measured by how many people we employ simply administering the bureaucracy of defence. We need to protect the field force's organizational integrity (even if we change its structure) so that it does not lose additional PYs to administrative functions or niche roles.
Regarding SSE, if this discussion is to be more than cloud shoveling then it needs a framework grounded in our tasks and not our wishes. Now, since this is not a decision-making body I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference in the end.
Like I said, the argument that this discussion should come out of the SSE is something I believe in as well (albeit that I have some issues with SSE). The problem with that approach is that for even a reasonable discussion those who see the NATO mission see justification for their approach, while peacekeepers and capacity builders see theirs and defence of the homeland ones see theirs. The question is where do you put the emphasis? On this issue people in this forum and elsewhere will differ.

I've said for some time that the multiplicity of our missions isn't the problem, the problem is that as a symmetric and general purpose Army, we toss taskings around like candy at a kid's birthday party while our managed readiness system guarantees that a large portion of our force is "not ready". By reorganizing the force into two divisions - one with one Reg F brigade and designated reserve units to concentrate on a heavy force for deterrence with NATO and one with two Reg F brigades (one light and one mech) and designated reserve units to concentrate on rapid reaction scenarios, capacity building and peacekeeping - would reduce both staff and training time in preparing for missions; would facilitate the ability to more fully integrate the Res F into their Reg F counterparts role; and facilitate equipping, maintaining and sustaining the separate parts.

One option that should be on the table, if capacity building missions are going to be the norm, should be converting some of our units into such organizations. When not engaged on such missions they could run training for both components.
And yes, I would give capacity building as one of the tasks of the light brigade and probably reconfigure the brigade in such a way that all of the requisite components of a proper capacity building unit - including a rotational system - were part and parcel to its establishment. To me, the best structure for a capacity building force is one based on a battle group structure with a core of leaders and instructors for all the key elements (inf, armour/recce, arty, engr, sigs, CSS) which would not only be able, in its day-to-day role, to provide the capacity building function but could also, in an emergency with planned augmentation from the reserves expand into a full light battle group or more.

It strikes me that the light brigade would have less day-to-day out of country missions if the heavy brigade concentrates on northern Europe and the medium brigade on peacekeeping rotations and thus look more to internal issues such as capacity building the reserves and northern and coastal operations.

While I totally agree that there must be an integrated training system for both components that has the capacity to shrink or expand with the fluctuating demands for training output, I see some issues in having a unit that is designed to do both capacity building and own force training. When it comes to own force training one of the most critical elements, especially for the Res F is regularity and dependability that courses will go as planned. It's hard enough just integrating Reg F and Res F training because of the summer training v summer leave/APS cycles of the two forces. Adding a foreign component in, especially if it requires delivering that training in the foreign country creates a complexity that will almost ensure something will have to give - my bet is it would be the Res F training element. We definitely need to fix the training system of both our Reg F and Res F components and it needs to be one that is focused heavily towards training the Res F during the prime school vacation periods when both the students and the Reg F equipment is available and, as much as possible, by distributing that training as far down to the local level as is practical.

So, that in broad strokes, is my solution. I'm interested in hearing yours.

🍻
 
Strong domestic manufacturing capability for their military goods. Carrier capability. Strong navy. Strong nuclear sub capability. Non-NATO member who can match to the beat of their own drum if they choose.

They really are the heavy hitters of Europe. I’m not sure why the world saw Germany as such for so long.

The French have a mighty big stick when they need it.

Edit - ^^ reply to OldSoldier.
 
My point isn't to be a cheerleader for the Centaruo but to question assumptions. If the purpose of Force 2025 is to re-align the CF to better meet the challenges of future warfare then I think this is the time to do it.

The claim has been made and often repeated that the best anti-tank weapon is another tank. Is that really the case? What makes it better than ATGMs, Loitering Munitions, Artillery, etc.? Is it the fact that the round fired from a tank is faster and harder to intercept and does greater damage than the other options? If that's the case then is it more tank guns that we need (regardless of how they are mounted) to best defeat enemy armour? Is it the armour protection that the tank provides which makes it survivable? Is that level of protection only required because a tank is a line-of-sight weapon?

Is a tank currently designed the way it is more for its offensive role (it has to be able to survive in an exposed attack) rather than for its defensive role as an anti-tank weapon? Would different designs for each role be more effective...or do we simply combine the requirements into a single dual-purpose design for flexibility? What are the benefits and costs of each approach.

Then there is the higher level questions. Is the offensive capability of a tank worth the cost if the rest of your forces aren't equipped to be able to conduct offensive operations? What can your tanks achieve if the accompanying infantry is cut apart in non-survivable APCs?

Again...maybe the tank is the right answer, but maybe we should ask some tough questions about what kinds of conflicts we expect to face and what the best tools to win those conflicts might be.

$.02
 
I'll give the French credit - if they think its an issue they will take some form of action, world opinion be damned.

complete sidetrack: They never gave up their colonies. The entirety of French Africa has been subsidizing France's treasury for more than 60 years. Quite literally if the Frenchafrique wants access to their own money they have to borrow it from the French National bank. They are financially under the thumb of France. Interestingly whenever a politician in those colonies makes a big play to remove French currency they get assassinated. Also isn't it interesting that when Gaddafi made a large play to replace the French currencies with a Pan African one suddenly his country fell apart?

Good video on what is essentially French oppression to control their "colonies"
 
Strong domestic manufacturing capability for their military goods. Carrier capability. Strong navy. Strong nuclear sub capability. Non-NATO member who can match to the beat of their own drum if they choose.

They really are the heavy hitters of Europe. I’m not sure why the world saw Germany as such for so long.

The French have a mighty big stick when they need it.

Edit - ^^ reply to OldSoldier.
It's because for most of the last half of the last century Germany looked at the threat on its northern and eastern border and constitutionally isolated itself from interference in the rest of the world while France had a strong buffer to its north and thus had the luxury of looking outward at its possessions, its former possessions and the Francophonie.

🍻
 
My point isn't to be a cheerleader for the Centaruo but to question assumptions. If the purpose of Force 2025 is to re-align the CF to better meet the challenges of future warfare then I think this is the time to do it.

The claim has been made and often repeated that the best anti-tank weapon is another tank. Is that really the case? What makes it better than ATGMs, Loitering Munitions, Artillery, etc.? Is it the fact that the round fired from a tank is faster and harder to intercept and does greater damage than the other options? If that's the case then is it more tank guns that we need (regardless of how they are mounted) to best defeat enemy armour? Is it the armour protection that the tank provides which makes it survivable? Is that level of protection only required because a tank is a line-of-sight weapon?

Is a tank currently designed the way it is more for its offensive role (it has to be able to survive in an exposed attack) rather than for its defensive role as an anti-tank weapon? Would different designs for each role be more effective...or do we simply combine the requirements into a single dual-purpose design for flexibility? What are the benefits and costs of each approach.

Then there is the higher level questions. Is the offensive capability of a tank worth the cost if the rest of your forces aren't equipped to be able to conduct offensive operations? What can your tanks achieve if the accompanying infantry is cut apart in non-survivable APCs?

Again...maybe the tank is the right answer, but maybe we should ask some tough questions about what kinds of conflicts we expect to face and what the best tools to win those conflicts might be.

$.02
We bought the Leopard 2s with the money intended for 66 Mobile Gun Systems (MGS). Now, buying military equipment is sometimes a little like eBay where the shipping costs can add up.

The Leopard 2A6M is a supreme tank-killer with its optics, electronics and 55 calibre barrel. Other systems can kill tanks, though, and simple tank-killing is not necessarily a reason to get a tank. An MBT is a general purpose weapon system and is one of the fundamental components of combat power on the modern, conventional battlefield. We have Leopard 2s, so I don't see the need to go and invest in a wheeled gun system. I absolutely see a need for infantry-portable anti-tank weapons in the 2k band and some longer range ATGMs. Having infantry AT means that we can mass our tanks as required instead of parceling them out a troop at a time to protect infantry companies.

A LAV company with four Javelin and perhaps two TOW in support with an obstacle plan and fire support should be able to block against a battalion supported by tanks. This frees a Leopard Squadron attached to the BG to be countermoves, massing as appropriate instead of being weak everywhere and strong nowhere.

This is not a new lesson, but it was brought home to me on Capability Development Experiment 10 (CDX10), which I wrote about a few pages back.

While I was impressed by Namer's when I was in the Middle East, you don't necessarily need those to conduct offensive operations in a conventional battlefield. We have doctrine and tactics to allow mechanized infantry to make a contribution to the fight from vehicles with the protection of a LAV or M113. Namers are very useful in stability operations where you might be sending infantry into urban areas against an irregular foe.

We have a world-class MBT, and if our infantry had something like Javelin we could field one of the most capable Battle Groups around. Perhaps in a Cavalry role for a formation, perhaps as a line BG as part of a Multi-National Brigade Group.
 
So this is a multi faceted question. That I spent a fair bit of time staring at the screen writing and rewriting answers to. The answer is quite simply between the crew qualifications, the OJT training of the Limas, and the spatial awareness required of command teams (we move faster and reach further) it all adds up a lot. All of those people, however, are qualified dismounted infanteers and cover those skills on their career courses in a way that is not always true in the reverse ( WOs and up excluded).

I am pretty firm in my belief it's much easier, from a training perspective, so strip LAVs and have guys go dismounted then it is to add LAVs and all of a sudden insert a huge amount of both class room and field training.
Copy. Would (and this is assuming "light" is useful, as opposed to "LAV-less") replacing LAV-related time with mountain, jump, and other skills produce sufficient training time to deliver three battalions who're able to effectively maintain those skills across their structure, rather than as three orphan companies?
To your other point, again each Light Bn has a para coy, has a mountain coy, has an "other coy." I don't see what you're suggesting as different? Bare in mind, we're all just talking about the numbers in a full Bn, but the army is talking about stripping Bns down to 60 percent manning to fill schools. So why are we even acting like 9 Bns is doable?
You'd mentioned that those current units were too small to maintain the specialty: assumed that meant three scattered companies were too small, so was looking at massing - whether that would mean a para battalion, a mountain battalion, and a "miscellaneous" battalion, or being able to deliver those skills to all three battalions at a sufficiently high level of quality to be worthwhile.

As far as numbers, better informed people keep mentioning overgrown HQs.
 
complete sidetrack: They never gave up their colonies. The entirety of French Africa has been subsidizing France's treasury for more than 60 years. Quite literally if the Frenchafrique wants access to their own money they have to borrow it from the French National bank. They are financially under the thumb of France. Interestingly whenever a politician in those colonies makes a big play to remove French currency they get assassinated. Also isn't it interesting that when Gaddafi made a large play to replace the French currencies with a Pan African one suddenly his country fell apart?

Good video on what is essentially French oppression to control their "colonies"
Thank you for your explanation. Its very interesting and informative.
 
Copy. Would (and this is assuming "light" is useful, as opposed to "LAV-less") replacing LAV-related time with mountain, jump, and other skills produce sufficient training time to deliver three battalions who're able to effectively maintain those skills across their structure, rather than as three orphan companies?

You'd mentioned that those current units were too small to maintain the specialty: assumed that meant three scattered companies were too small, so was looking at massing - whether that would mean a para battalion, a mountain battalion, and a "miscellaneous" battalion, or being able to deliver those skills to all three battalions at a sufficiently high level of quality to be worthwhile.

As far as numbers, better informed people keep mentioning overgrown HQ

Sorry I'm not trying to be rude here, but that's literally what we have in terms of numbers. I guess you could group all the light companies by specialty, sure, but we still wouldn't have the capacity for supporting them. For example who's providing them mobility, fire support, or feeding and fueling them? In terms of training time, that's largely what happens. I just don't see what the benefit is, it's like we're chasing a job for the Light Bns as opposed to filling the jobs we know we need filled.

If we cut an HQ, and I think we probably ought to, those PYs aren't Ptes and Cpls that you need to fill in the sections and platoons.
 
We bought the Leopard 2s with the money intended for 66 Mobile Gun Systems (MGS). Now, buying military equipment is sometimes a little like eBay where the shipping costs can add up.

The Leopard 2A6M is a supreme tank-killer with its optics, electronics and 55 calibre barrel. Other systems can kill tanks, though, and simple tank-killing is not necessarily a reason to get a tank. An MBT is a general purpose weapon system and is one of the fundamental components of combat power on the modern, conventional battlefield. We have Leopard 2s, so I don't see the need to go and invest in a wheeled gun system. I absolutely see a need for infantry-portable anti-tank weapons in the 2k band and some longer range ATGMs. Having infantry AT means that we can mass our tanks as required instead of parceling them out a troop at a time to protect infantry companies.

A LAV company with four Javelin and perhaps two TOW in support with an obstacle plan and fire support should be able to block against a battalion supported by tanks. This frees a Leopard Squadron attached to the BG to be countermoves, massing as appropriate instead of being weak everywhere and strong nowhere.

This is not a new lesson, but it was brought home to me on Capability Development Experiment 10 (CDX10), which I wrote about a few pages back.

While I was impressed by Namer's when I was in the Middle East, you don't necessarily need those to conduct offensive operations in a conventional battlefield. We have doctrine and tactics to allow mechanized infantry to make a contribution to the fight from vehicles with the protection of a LAV or M113. Namers are very useful in stability operations where you might be sending infantry into urban areas against an irregular foe.

We have a world-class MBT, and if our infantry had something like Javelin we could field one of the most capable Battle Groups around. Perhaps in a Cavalry role for a formation, perhaps as a line BG as part of a Multi-National Brigade Group.
Amen.

The acquisition of a modern ATGM and DMR would be an extremely cheap way to drastically increase the lethality of a BG.

In theory both could be easy contracts. Fund them, push them through as UORs, train the troops, done. (Relatively easy, I know someone will point out the inevitable ‘can’t snap your fingers’ point, which is valid.)

Doesn’t require an increase in PYs. Does give them the ability to reach out and accurately touch someone though. Or blow up their ride.
 
Amen.

The acquisition of a modern ATGM and DMR would be an extremely cheap way to drastically increase the lethality of a BG.

In theory both could be easy contracts. Fund them, push them through as UORs, train the troops, done. (Relatively easy, I know someone will point out the inevitable ‘can’t snap your fingers’ point, which is valid.)

Doesn’t require an increase in PYs. Does give them the ability to reach out and accurately touch someone though. Or blow up their ride.

Regretfully UORs are not for the acquisition of equipment that is meant to become a standard in the force but only with mission specific without the usual long term maintenance and support and organizational changes. UORs are Unforecasted Operational Requirements and intended to be for temporary operational use. I'm not sure if this requirement is currently in the Army's wish list and know even less as to its status (if any).

On the other hand, I'm coming to the conclusion that they could be cheaply integrated if one considers that the CLU is not terribly expensive as compared to the missile and that, as a fire and forget weapon, it does not require much (if any) experience in actually firing a number of weapons in training. Most of the proficiency seems to come from training in its tactical employment and from Javelin simulator missions to teach acquisition and tracking.

A few articles that I've seen indicate that live firing is not part of the training package for many individual trainees in the US Army. That means one could get by with a very limited training stock and even a small war stock with additional purchases coming in times of crisis.

🍻
 
Well ALAWS has apparently separated from the Light Force Enhancement Project, so some kind of ATGM is in the works within the next 5 ish years.

DMR is, to me, a very COIN oriented weapon system. I get the rule of cool effect they have, but I don't know that it massively increases a section or a platoon's lethality. If we did want them though, simply order more C20s.
 
They aren't immune:

Two French soldiers killed in Mali: French presidency​

President Emmanuel Macron’s office says an explosive device hit the soldiers’ vehicle Saturday in Mali’s Menaka region.


They aren't immune. They just have a higher pain threshold. Especially when its foreigners in French service.
 
The purpose-built gun-armed TD made sense for a short period in WWII (a period before it was actually developed and deployed); it no longer does.

The point was to put a weapon powerful enough to defeat tanks on a tracked chassis so that it could move into and out of action rapidly (more so than towed guns) and displace to new positions on the battlefield. Today a powerful enough gun can be put into a heavily armoured, closed-top, properly turreted tank with high battlefield mobility and speed.

The other piece of equipment that has the requisite mobility and hitting power is the attack helicopter - the true successor to the tracked TD.

Whatever anti-armour capability Canada has must firstly be properly employable for defence against armour other than in massed tank-heavy formations. For the latter, we need a doctrine (and allies) but not another over-specialized piece of equipment. If a wheeled gun is wanted, other reasons should (must) be found.


Both the Heavily Armoured vehicle (wheeled or tracked) and the Attack Helicopter - take time to deploy from Canada and require a great deal of in-theatre support. Although a half-squadron of AH-64s could probably be supported and commanded from the Asterix or a JSS. Load weapons on shore.
 
Both the Heavily Armoured vehicle (wheeled or tracked) and the Attack Helicopter - take time to deploy from Canada and require a great deal of in-theatre support. Although a half-squadron of AH-64s could probably be supported and commanded from the Asterix or a JSS. Load weapons on shore.
I too am a huge fan of attack helicopters. What I worry is their vulnerability in places they would be useful, especially if we lack capable and modern fighters to protect them. (F-35, Trudeau.)
 
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