Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[rmc_wannabe]

Yup, it’s becoming pretty common with our partners, the USAF DACAS system is built around it which will eventually drag the CAF ADM(IM) and DM Secure in kicking and screaming.

FTFY.

The CAF, specifically the CA and RCCS, want these kinds of systems implemented yesterday. Our own risk adverse and antiquated security policies trip us up at the starting block.

 

[markppcli]

FTFY.

The CAF, specifically the CA and RCCS, want these kinds of systems implemented yesterday. Our own risk adverse and antiquated security policies trip us up at the starting block.

I may have given a signaler an aneurism last week when I explained I can control the faceplate of my 152 off my phone.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I may have given a signaler an aneurism last week when I explained I can control the faceplate of my 152 off my phone.

I wouldn't doubt it. We have had problems in the Corps with training Operators and Technicians, vice Monkeys at a typewriter.

SOPs and Menu flow charts kill the inquisitive mind. I remember blowing the minds of IS Techs when I showed them how to use a GUI to program network devices instead of Command Line. It's infuriating.

It's the same thing as the D365 vs. Office 365. We take an existing platform, strip away half It's functionality, and it's more of a pain in ass than an improvement.

 

[markppcli]

I wouldn't doubt it. We have had problems in the Corps with training Operators and Technicians, vice Monkeys at a typewriter.

SOPs and Menu flow charts kill the inquisitive mind. I remember blowing the minds of IS Techs when I showed them how to use a GUI to program network devices instead of Command Line. It's infuriating.

It's the same thing as the D365 vs. Office 365. We take an existing platform, strip away half It's functionality, and it's more of a pain in ass than an improvement.

It ended up with us having to sit them down and be like here’s the system guys, we’ve been using it for years. It’s all blessed by on high; we just have an updated plugin. (That plug-in being absolutely fantastic)

 

[Kirkhill]

A light to moderately armoured vehicle filled with batteries. What could possibly go wrong?

So don't put a crew in the vehicle - if you can't find a crew that wants to do the job.

Again, I keep coming back to this. Why can't we accept that we can't find people and therefore we need to do things differently with fewer people and more motors and PLCs?

 

[markppcli]

So don't put a crew in the vehicle - if you can't find a crew that wants to do the job.

Again, I keep coming back to this. Why can't we accept that we can't find people and therefore we need to do things differently with fewer people and more motors and PLCs?

Because those technologies aren’t ready, and won’t be ready for the next 10 years by all estimates, and we need systems working now.

Also do you still get royalties for your appearance here?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Because those technologies aren’t ready, and won’t be ready for the next 10 years by all estimates, and we need systems working now.

And autonomous vehicles aren't legal yet, in any jurisdiction, either...

 

[markppcli]

And autonomous vehicles aren't legal yet, in any jurisdiction, either...

Tesla behind eight-vehicle crash was in ‘full self-driving’ mode, says driver

San Francisco crash is the latest in a series of accidents blamed on Tesla technology, which is facing regulatory scrutiny

www.theguardian.com

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/15/1105252793/nearly-400-car-crashes-in-11-months-involved-automated-tech-companies-tell-regul

GM’s Cruise Autonomous Vehicles under Investigation after Crashes

The self-driving Chevy Bolts braked abruptly in a series of crashes, causing rear-end collisions, and NHTSA is now looking into the situation.

www.caranddriver.com

Can’t imagine why….

 

[Kirkhill]

Wrong character - It's crap!

Because those technologies aren’t ready, and won’t be ready for the next 10 years by all estimates, and we need systems working now.

And the systems you have available now require people you don't have available now and by all estimates will take 10 years to recruit and train.


Again the counter that if we can't have hovertanks then we must use horses. I can't use Canadian industry as an example because it does a pisspoor job of exploiting technology to enhance productivity. In that sense the CAF reflects Canadian society quite well.

But other countries exploit the available technology as much as possible and use human labour to fill in the gaps that can't be filled otherwise.

So we can't drive Laser Strykers on the highway at rush hour autonomously. You could put a driver in for that condition. You could have the vehicle self-drive in a follow the leader packet. You could maybe drag the battery pack as a trailer. The trailer could be self propelled for local manoeuvering in the absence of a prime mover.....

Nobody is getting all the free labour they need or want these days - civvy or military - Canada, UK, US, Aussie, Ukraine, Russia or China.

 

[markppcli]

Wrong character - It's crap!

And the systems you have available now require people you don't have available now and by all estimates will take 10 years to recruit and train.


Again the counter that if we can't have hovertanks then we must use horses. I can't use Canadian industry as an example because it does a pisspoor job of exploiting technology to enhance productivity. In that sense the CAF reflects Canadian society quite well.

But other countries exploit the available technology as much as possible and use human labour to fill in the gaps that can't be filled otherwise.

So we can't drive Laser Strykers on the highway at rush hour autonomously. You could put a driver in for that condition. You could have the vehicle self-drive in a follow the leader packet. You could maybe drag the battery pack as a trailer. The trailer could be self propelled for local manoeuvering in the absence of a prime mover.....

Nobody is getting all the free labour they need or want these days - civvy or military - Canada, UK, US, Aussie, Ukraine, Russia or China.

I disagree about our people problem. It’s an imposed structural problem. Ie we aren’t allowed the number we need, and we still a bunch of positions we likely don’t need vs the ones we do.

We actually have tons of people trying g to join the CAF, we just make it so damned difficult to do it that they fall off the wayside. Again this is a structural problem that needs to be addressed.

I have never liked it when the Canadian Army leads the way, that’s how we got stuf with TCCCS, it’s how we got stuck with the ISSP systems. I’m happier if we let some one else do the R&D. This approach would require a more agile procurement strategy however.

 

[Kirkhill]

I disagree about our people problem. It’s an imposed structural problem. Ie we aren’t allowed the number we need, and we still a bunch of positions we likely don’t need vs the ones we do.

We actually have tons of people trying g to join the CAF, we just make it so damned difficult to do it that they fall off the wayside. Again this is a structural problem that needs to be addressed.

I have never lied it when the Canadian Army leads the way, that’s how we got stuf with TCCCS, it’s how we got stuck with the ISSP systems. I’m happier if we let some one else do the R&D.

Fair comments - especially about the leading the way bit. Canada is too small - but it is not smaller than Australia. Nor is is smaller than Sweden.

Perhaps Canada just can't bring itself to cut its losses? It can't tolerate failure so it sticks with failures long past the point they have been found to have failed. This also means years lost in search of perfection.

You say TCCCS. I say TAPV. I am sure we could jointly come up with a list we could agree on.



We need to try more stuff.



And wrt people - are you getting the right people? Or are you recruiting baggage handlers when you need coders?

 

[Kirkhill]

WRT people

The next article I see....

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/02/03/our_all-volunteer_military_force_implodes_879776.html

And

Germany debates reintroducing military conscription – DW – 02/03/2023

Almost one year into the war in Ukraine, the Bundeswehr finds itself still lacking military equipment and qualified personnel. A debate has flared up again whether general conscription could help solve the problems.

www.dw.com

 

[markppcli]

Fair comments - especially about the leading the way bit. Canada is too small - but it is not smaller than Australia. Nor is is smaller than Sweden.

Perhaps Canada just can't bring itself to cut its losses? It can't tolerate failure so it sticks with failures long past the point they have been found to have failed. This also means years lost in search of perfection.

What did Sweden do that was revolutionary? They built the CV90 but that’s just a very good IfV. You’re talking about pioneering unmanned combat vehicles.

What failures are you taking about here?

You say TCCCS. I say TAPV. I am sure we could jointly come up with a list we could agree on.

We didn’t design the TAPV from the ground up. We just, to quote the Last Crusade, Chose Poorly.

View attachment 76254

We need to try more stuff.

What stuff ? What are we trying ?

And wrt people - are you getting the right people? Or are you recruiting baggage handlers when you need coders?

We need both. We have a harder time getting coders because no one with that skill set wants to do it for what we are willing to pay them. Cyber Op for example is trying to get people with a masters to work for 30-60k a year, it’s not happening. Sigs is similar but that has another host of reasons and is more of a retention problem.

 

[Kirkhill]

What did Sweden do that was revolutionary?

They equipped their armed forces with weapons they built themselves in sufficient numbers to meet their needs.

In addition to the CV90, we can look at Stirling AIP subs, their stealth corvettes, their missiles, the CG84 and the entire array of munitions, the Viggen, Drakken and Grippen jets.... rifles, radars (Eriksson Giraffe), AEW aircraft.

Sweden, and Finland and Switzerland all do very nicely looking after their needs.

They built the CV90 but that’s just a very good IfV.

The CV90 is now in its fifth iteration and development continues.

You’re talking about pioneering unmanned combat vehicles.

Autonomous Vehicles Startups in Sweden

There are 17 Autonomous Vehicles startups in Sweden. Here is a list of the 10 most exciting ones

tracxn.com

What failures are you taking about here?

I'll stick with the TAPV - a vehicle in search of a job -

We didn’t design the TAPV from the ground up. We just, to quote the Last Crusade, Chose Poorly.

We didn't design the TAPV from the ground up. We got a vendor who had a functional design and then modified it, with the vendor's collusion to a less functional design. We now have a vehicle that we can use, fix (upgrade or derate), sell or scrap. All of those are valid courses of action. Some would require somebody to admit failure. And it would cost money.

What stuff ? What are we trying ?

Not enough.

We need both. We have a harder time getting coders because no one with that skill set wants to do it for what we are willing to pay them. Cyber Op for example is trying to get people with a masters to work for 30-60k a year, it’s not happening. Sigs is similar but that has another host of reasons and is more of a retention problem.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS -

We are well engaged in the UGV business.

Our vehicles are being trialled in the US, the UK, Europe and Australia - and our people are developing the software.

Between May 2021 and May 2022, the number of autonomous haul trucks in operation globally rose from 769 to 1,068, an increase of 39%, with the figure expected to exceed 1,800 by the end of 2025. Major additions are coming from BHP, which has plans to automate up to 500 haul trucks across its Western Australia iron ore and Queensland coal mines through to 2023, while both Canadian Natural Resources and Suncor Energy are expecting to add over 100 autonomous trucks to their oil sands mines before the end of 2025.

By country, the largest population of autonomous trucks is in Australia with 706, up from 561 in 2021 and 381 two years earlier. It is followed by Canada with 177, up from 143 in 2021, China with 69 and Chile with 33. Autonomous haul trucks are present at 25 mines in Australia, compared with 19 across the rest of the world.

Australia continues to dominate the use of autonomous haul trucks

BHP accounts for the largest number of autonomous trucks in operation with 300, followed by Fortescue Metals Group with 193 trucks.

www.mining-technology.com

Not 10 years.

 

[Kirkhill]

More autonomous stuff from down under

- Closed circuits
Up to 60 km/h

Autonomous Ford Ranger developed by Australian mining company

In what is believed to be a world first, an Australian mining company has equipped four Ford Ranger utes with fully autonomous technology.

www.drive.com.au

And in Canada

Steep growth continues in use of Autonomous Haul Trucks, particularly in Australia and Canada

The popularity of autonomous haul trucks is gradually growing across surface mines, with miners taking advantage of improvements to productivity; reductions in accidents and operating costs; increased machine life and tyre life and lower fuel consumption.

www.mining-technology.com

 

[markppcli]

and all your examples prove the point. Closed circuits. A to b with not in between.

10 years

Computer Driven Autos Still Years Away Despite Massive Investment

There’s no realistic chance that full-on self-driving will be available before 2030, and then only in a tiny number of top-of-the-range sedans and SUVs, according to consultancy Accenture.

www.forbes.com

Self-Driving Cars Could Be Decades Away, No Matter What Elon Musk Said

Experts aren’t sure when, if ever, we’ll have truly autonomous vehicles that can drive anywhere without help. First, AI will need to get a lot smarter.

www.wsj.com

 

[GR66]

Assuming that the plan is to keep the 3 x Light Infantry Battalions and assuming that the primary purpose of our having Light forces is their rapid response capability, then given our limited airlift capability is the Brigade Group structure the best way to go for our Light forces?

If our realistic rapid reaction capability is a Battle Group sized force, then does it make sense to have to put together a Battle Group from the Brigade's units each time you need to deploy, or are you better off having three combined arms Battle Groups right from the start?

 

[markppcli]

Assuming that the plan is to keep the 3 x Light Infantry Battalions and assuming that the primary purpose of our having Light forces is their rapid response capability, then given our limited airlift capability is the Brigade Group structure the best way to go for our Light forces?

If our realistic rapid reaction capability is a Battle Group sized force, then does it make sense to have to put together a Battle Group from the Brigade's units each time you need to deploy, or are you better off having three combined arms Battle Groups right from the start?

Yes, because some of our assets are held in small numbers and need to be grouped for a larger critical mass when not deployed. Specifically engineer, artillery, and logistics assets. Our actual “rapid reaction” capability is a SOC from CSOR let’s be honest.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yes, because some of our assets are held in small numbers and need to be grouped for a larger critical mass when not deployed. Specifically engineer, artillery, and logistics assets. Our actual “rapid reaction” capability is a SOC from CSOR let’s be honest.

I laughed because I remember what it was like being part of a fairly robust (2 airborne, three air landing bns, arty regt, engr regiment, endless log units) 'rapid reaction' airborne brigade, on 24 hours NTM: "Wheels up in 18" for the lead parachute battalion group.

Just keeping the manpower topped up was like trying to put smoke into a spreadsheet.

It's a complicated, resource intensive, really expensive effort that should only be undertaken when national interests are at imminent risk.

I can't imagine that anything the CAF is responsible for these days, apart from responding to internal domestic emergencies like wildfires, would justify this kind of investment.