Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

Nothing that the CAF couldn’t adjust* with a 6-week long ATV operator course…


* sure you can fly an $83M helicopter, but you can’t drive a JD Gator…

I think mine was 2 days in Canada, after I had used them in Afghanistan
It probably made me dumber, as it had a road test complete with cones etc -- as opposed to safe operation off-road etc, the way the old (maybe still run) Dispatch Rider Motorcycle course was done.

 

[Kirkhill]

Given some discussion about Canada being asked to supply/lead a "Heavy" Division I took another look at what the British lead "Heavy" Division looked like and asked how close we were to it.

Maybe it isn't so far out of our grasp. The Brits are building their Brigade out of two "mechanized" brigades with Boxers (WAPCs), Challengers and AJAX/CV90s (depending on what they decide to do with the AJAXs), and a Deep Strike Recce Bde with Rockets, L52 Cannons and ISR assets including Cavalry.

			3 UK Armd Div
			MI Bn
			7 Sigs Gp
		Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt
			101 Op Sust Bde
			REME Rgt
		Log Rgt		Log Rgt
			25 CS Eng Gp
		Close Spt		Close Spt
			Force Spt
			7 AD Gp
			SRAD
			MRAD
			1 Deep Recce Strike BCT
			REME
		Armd Cav	Lt Cav	Armd Cav
		Close Spt	STA	Close Spt
		Deep Fires		Deep Fires
	12 BCT				20BCT
	Spt Gp				Spt Gp
	Log Rgt				Log Rgt
	Med Rgt				Med Rgt
	REME Bn				REME Bn
	Armd Cav				Armd Cav
Mech Inf		Mech Inf		Mech Inf	Mech Inf	Mech Inf
	Armd				Armd

A preliminary in-fill of the structure with Canadian units

			1 Cdn Div
			MI Bn
			Sigs Gp
		Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt
			101 Op Sust Bde
			REME Rgt
		Log Rgt		Log Rgt
			CS Eng Gp
		2 CER	4 ESR	5 CER
			AD Gp
			SRAD
			MRAD
			1 DRSB
			1 Svc Bn
		1 PPCLI	LdSH(RC)	2 PPCLI
		2 RCHA	4(GS) RCA	5 RALC
			1 RCHA
	2 CMB				5 CMB
	2 Svc Bn				5 Svc Bn
	RCD				12 RBC
1 RCR		2 RCR		1 R22R		2 R22R

We are long on Infantry (3 RCR, PPCLI and R22R)
We are even on Arty (Need to radically re-equip though)
We are short on Cavalry (Need to re-role 1 and 2 PPCLI at least)
We are very short on Support (Sigs, REME, Med and LOG ) - They deploy battalions where we deploy companies
And Air Defence is Absent

There is a lot of other capabilities that can be added to that basic structure but we could approximate the basic structure with what we have.
Need to make up some of the deficiencies from all of the light battalions.

Our Mech Bns could become CA Bns by adding a 14 Tank Squadron to each battalion along with a LRATGM Troop for Armoured Defence.

We might just could maybe put together something broadly similar to the Div if we squinted real hard and held our tongue right.

 

[McG]

I apologize for the ignorance, but what does this baseline look like? What do the maneuver units + artillery of a CMBG look like when organized and equipped to meet doctrine?

Start here.

 

[Kirkhill]

Start here.

You should have added "And the best of luck!"

I do love clarity.

 

[McG]

Unfortunately, there is not a concise reference and the building blocks are all described in different books.

 

[Kirkhill]

Given some discussion about Canada being asked to supply/lead a "Heavy" Division I took another look at what the British lead "Heavy" Division looked like and asked how close we were to it.

Maybe it isn't so far out of our grasp. The Brits are building their Brigade out of two "mechanized" brigades with Boxers (WAPCs), Challengers and AJAX/CV90s (depending on what they decide to do with the AJAXs), and a Deep Strike Recce Bde with Rockets, L52 Cannons and ISR assets including Cavalry.

			3 UK Armd Div
			MI Bn
			7 Sigs Gp
		Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt
			101 Op Sust Bde
			REME Rgt
		Log Rgt		Log Rgt
			25 CS Eng Gp
		Close Spt		Close Spt
			Force Spt
			7 AD Gp
			SRAD
			MRAD
			1 Deep Recce Strike BCT
			REME
		Armd Cav	Lt Cav	Armd Cav
		Close Spt	STA	Close Spt
		Deep Fires		Deep Fires
	12 BCT				20BCT
	Spt Gp				Spt Gp
	Log Rgt				Log Rgt
	Med Rgt				Med Rgt
	REME Bn				REME Bn
	Armd Cav				Armd Cav
Mech Inf		Mech Inf		Mech Inf	Mech Inf	Mech Inf
	Armd				Armd

A preliminary in-fill of the structure with Canadian units

			1 Cdn Div
			MI Bn
			Sigs Gp
		Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt	Sigs Rgt
			101 Op Sust Bde
			REME Rgt
		Log Rgt		Log Rgt
			CS Eng Gp
		2 CER	4 ESR	5 CER
			AD Gp
			SRAD
			MRAD
			1 DRSB
			1 Svc Bn
		1 PPCLI	LdSH(RC)	2 PPCLI
		2 RCHA	4(GS) RCA	5 RALC
			1 RCHA
	2 CMB				5 CMB
	2 Svc Bn				5 Svc Bn
	RCD				12 RBC
1 RCR		2 RCR		1 R22R		2 R22R

We are long on Infantry (3 RCR, PPCLI and R22R)
We are even on Arty (Need to radically re-equip though)
We are short on Cavalry (Need to re-role 1 and 2 PPCLI at least)
We are very short on Support (Sigs, REME, Med and LOG ) - They deploy battalions where we deploy companies
And Air Defence is Absent

There is a lot of other capabilities that can be added to that basic structure but we could approximate the basic structure with what we have.
Need to make up some of the deficiencies from all of the light battalions.

Our Mech Bns could become CA Bns by adding a 14 Tank Squadron to each battalion along with a LRATGM Troop for Armoured Defence.

We might just could maybe put together something broadly similar to the Div if we squinted real hard and held our tongue right.

Should we consider keeping the Regiments but just numbering the Battlegroups as Combined Arms Battlegroups? Battlegroups 1-9 created from sub-units of different Regiments with particular taskings and with the best qualified Lt Col in command?

 

[Kirkhill]

Unfortunately, there is not a concise reference.

Mayhap I sense a problem?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think mine was 2 days in Canada, after I had used them in Afghanistan
It probably made me dumber, as it had a road test complete with cones etc -- as opposed to safe operation off-road etc, the way the old (maybe still run) Dispatch Rider Motorcycle course was done.

This is how I learned to ride a motorcycle... and barely survived

Notice the 'defaulters' doing pushups in the puddle at 1.29

 

[WLSC]

Should we consider keeping the Regiments but just numbering the Battlegroups as Combined Arms Battlegroups? Battlegroups 1-9 created from sub-units of different Regiments with particular taskings and with the best qualified Lt Col in command?

Just to be clear, a BG that include a coy of RCR, Vandoos and PPCLI under a Lcol? Poor niner ! Regiment are family name that come with their own attitude. I would like to see that when they'll says ''As per SOP''

 

[IKnowNothing]

Start here.

Firstly, thank-you for the great reference source.
Secondly, curse you for the rollercoaster that was having my eyes light up at the menus and headings and then getting crushed by the fun you Kirkhill alluded to.
Thirdly, I apologize for my tone with regard to CA doctrine. Just scratching the surface, but I've read enough to believe in the (doctrinal) CMBG.
Fourthly, in my defense the CMBG as represent based on the current organization and equipment bares little resemblance to what is called for/allowed.
Fifthly, even just scratching said surface I'm incredibly frustrated at CA leadership for not making the decisions required to follow that.

 

[KevinB]

Just to be clear, a BG that include a coy of RCR, Vandoos and PPCLI under a Lcol? Poor niner ! Regiment are family name that come with their own attitude. I would like to see that when they'll says ''As per SOP''

Well the CAR was a microcosm of that..

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just to be clear, a BG that include a coy of RCR, Vandoos and PPCLI under a Lcol? Poor niner ! Regiment are family name that come with their own attitude. I would like to see that when they'll says ''As per SOP''

I've led rifle companies formed from troops from up to four different regiments.

It worked fine, as long as we adhered to the 'no cap badges on helmets' philosophy.

As the commander, at the outset, I found it important to not pay too much attention to my own troops at the expense of the others though, but that tendency went away after a couple of days.

 

[WLSC]

Well the CAR was a microcosm of that..

You’re totally right but your reasoning is to adult for the spirit of the post

 

[WLSC]

I've led rifle companies formed from troops from up to four different regiments.

It worked fine, as long as we adhered to the 'no cap badges on helmets' philosophy.

As the commander, at the outset, I found it important to not pay too much attention to my own troops at the expense of the others though, but that tendency went away after a couple of days.

I know it work, don’t worry. I’ve done platoons and coy of multi cap badge. It was really just a light spirited comment. At the end of the day, we’re all professionals.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I know it work, don’t worry. I’ve done platoons and coy of multi cap badge. It was really just a light spirited comment. At the end of the day, we’re all professionals.

Don't bet on it. I've seen alot of 'unprofessionals' in action!

 

[WLSC]

Don't bet on it. I've seen alot of 'unprofessionals' in action!

Did you .

We should open a thread on that, it should be fun…maybe not. Better just say nothing

 

[daftandbarmy]

Did you .

We should open a thread on that, it should be fun…maybe not. Better just say nothing

I had a CO who referred to our (invaluable) atts and dets as 'those f*cking assh*les' so yes, I have seen that - sadly!

And yes, the less said the better

 

[McG]

Well the CAR was a microcosm of that..

So was a certain R22eR BG in Bosnia, and the whole 27th Canadian Infantry Brigade when it arrived in Germany.

 

[Kirkhill]

So was a certain R22eR BG in Bosnia, and the whole 27th Canadian Infantry Brigade when it arrived in Germany.

Or the 27th Commonwealth Brigade at Kapyong?

 

[McG]

Or the 27th Commonwealth Brigade at Kapyong?

I am not tracking that brigade having had a particular military-tribe problem, and its constituent units were generally homogeneous from a regimental perspective.