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It was proposed as a COA from my understanding - think it was the most viable of all the options.
Admittedly I really don't understand why the CA is so rectally inverted at times.
Informing the Army’s Future Structure
- Thread starter dimsum
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Admittedly I really don't understand why the CA is so rectally inverted at times.
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The lethality and operational benefits of auto-loaded self-propelled howitzers has been well established in its field use in the German PzH2000, Russian 2S19 “Msta-S”, and Swedish Archer.
ERCA XM1299E1 auto-loading integration on to the M109A7 requires not simply new ammunition handling but also a new breech, gun positioning, and ammunition and fuse selection and setting. Achieving a rate of fire of 7 rounds per minute has been demonstrated in Army evaluations, though these employed a limited capacity loader.
US Army Demonstrates Auto-loading Artillery - Armada International
The US Army’s Picatinny Armaments Center recently highlighted its progress toward developing automated loading for its self-propelled howitzers.
www.armadainternational.com
The 57 tonne solution (C17)
The 48 tonne solution (C17)
K9 Thunder - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The 30 tonne solution (A400M)
Archer artillery system - Wikipedia
Other autoloaders
4.5-inch Mark 8 naval gun - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Otobreda 127/64 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
OTO Melara 76 mm - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Bofors 57 mm Naval Automatic Gun L/70 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Autoloaders aren't new technology. They are heavy but there is transport to solve that problem.
And once you get the light force on the ground and the airlanding secured don't you want to start bringing in the heavier gear as soon as possible?
One other thing that we seem to keep skipping over is that these systems are not used individually. They are used in multiples. There is nothing that says that all guns have to have an identical loadout. The loadout can be mixed and matched.
On the other hand any single gun with it Multi Round Simultaneous Impact capability can duplicate a Battery-1-Round-Fire for Effect shoot and put 6 rounds on target at one time.
3 Archer gunners replicating the work of 60 M777 gunners.
IKnowNothing
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@Kirkhill I smell an ACSV variant
Boxer RCH 155 Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com
The Boxer RCH 155, is a self-propelled artillery system, which utilizes 8x8 chassis of Boxer armored personnel carrier and 155 mm unmanned artillery gun module. This artillery system was introduced in 2014.
www.military-today.com
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Depending on terrain.
Light Forces need to be configured to work in complex terrain - which doesn't always support vehicles of any size.
I can jump into the mountains (same with the Arctic, or muskeg, swamp etc.) or Air Mobile/Air Assault via Helo, and M777's can come with me, -- but you can't drive out of there (or even get it there in some cases).
This is why Symmetry does not work, you need to tailor your forces and their equipment for the mission and terrain.
You can't just stick your head in the sand and wish certain aspects away (well apparently you can in Canada - but we see where that got the CA ...)
Sure if you are seizing and airhead you can jump in - secure it - and then bring heavier forces in -- but at that point it is either a relief in place - and you go off to do other things while the heavier boys stay local - or they push on and you hold the airhead.
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I understand. But suppose you can get a 90km cannon on the ground within 70 km of your LZ?
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Don't get me wrong - I think it is a great potential option for the Medium Force constructs in Canada - and would be a pretty good systems for the PRes Arty too - as everything that really needs to be done on them live, can be mimicked by a simulator - so the actual system could be held at larger bases. I just wouldn't want to stick them in a Light Bde Arty Reg't -- put then in the CSSB or Div Arty assets that could be chopped toward the Light Bde for certain ops.
quadrapiper
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Would mentally situating the Light Force as operating in an area like Vancouver Island* be a good guideline for kit, structure, and so on?
*Hills, gulleys, mountains, and hills, mostly covered in several generations of temperate rainforest, and with narrow ribbons of not-dirt-roads-through-trees development.
*Hills, gulleys, mountains, and hills, mostly covered in several generations of temperate rainforest, and with narrow ribbons of not-dirt-roads-through-trees development.
daftandbarmy
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Having a PTSD moment here as I recall trying to explain why, because of everything you've just mentioned, that's the type of training we should be doing (here on Vancouver Island) to
FML
quadrapiper
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That sounds monumentally unpleasant, a huge waste, and neglectful of whatever local / civil defence role might be desirable.
Also wonder what it does to retention: not sure of who's joining, but heading off into the bush to train (especially in an area where a good chunk of the population does outdoor "stuff" for fun, and another block already works there) sounds like fun, in a strenuous way.
How much of the opposition came from a desire to avoid having to make like a mountain goat on the part of the senior ranks?
(Stepping aside from the Army, it's always struck me as a huge waste that the Army Cadets in BC don't use Strathcona for their expedition summer courses, but instead make things work in Vernon.)
OldSolduer
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That depends on the task and mission. IIRC one of the characteristics of the 81 - which I adore - is it is "man portable for short distances" - and that is because the weight of ammo it fires demands a vehicle resup. 15 rounds/min rapid for four tubes will burn up 60 rounds in a minute.
daftandbarmy
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Like most everything else in the CAF, if it's not mandated from the highest levels the lowest levels won't/ can't make it work. As much as I like to bitch, the bosses are just doing (mainly) what their bosses are telling them to do/ not do and thus the CAF - in general - doesn't 'do' mountain stuff beyond niche capabilities. The fact is that the CAF is an Eastern Canada thing, like most of our federal institutions, so the mountains are largely relegated to postcards of Banff pinned to the odd cubicle wall.
And Strathcona Park Lodge (and I have stayed there before) is both old and tiny, and unsuited to hosting a hundred + cadets or so IMHO.
It's also full of mice/rats too by the way - bring your ear plugs if you want to sleep
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I’m a big fan of ATV type vehicles for Light Infantry especially in Support Weapon roles.
View it as a Transport Room as it where (for those familiar with the Arms Room concept) a tool in the toolbox to be used when applicable.
Mules and other pack animals need to be considered too. The USMC, USASOC and even BSA (Big Stupid Army) down here have sections of Mtn Ops courses dedicated to that aspect. Because you can’t always pick your AO.
The Mujahideen man packed a D-30 Howitzer up a mountain to fight the Russians - where there is a need, there is a way…
FJAG
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And standard Off-the-shelf civilian stuff already comes ruggedized and in cam colours if you want - cheap as borscht, all things considered.
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Nothing that the CAF couldn’t adjust* with a 6-week long ATV operator course…And standard Off-the-shelf civilian stuff already comes ruggedized and in cam colours if you want - cheap as borscht, all things considered.
* sure you can fly an $83M helicopter, but you can’t drive a JD Gator…
IKnowNothing
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It would be nice if Argo had something between the 8x8 and the Sherp.And standard Off-the-shelf civilian stuff already comes ruggedized and in cam colours if you want - cheap as borscht, all things considered.
quadrapiper
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Good to know re: the vermin. I'd understood the lodge was somewhat limited: was thinking of the broader park, especially those areas accessible from Forbidden Plateau and Comox Lake, if one was to work out of Comox. Really looking forward to getting back up there this summer.Like most everything else in the CAF, if it's not mandated from the highest levels the lowest levels won't/ can't make it work. As much as I like to bitch, the bosses are just doing (mainly) what their bosses are telling them to do/ not do and thus the CAF - in general - doesn't 'do' mountain stuff beyond niche capabilities. The fact is that the CAF is an Eastern Canada thing, like most of our federal institutions, so the mountains are largely relegated to postcards of Banff pinned to the odd cubicle wall.
And Strathcona Park Lodge (and I have stayed there before) is both old and tiny, and unsuited to hosting a hundred + cadets or so IMHO.
It's also full of mice/rats too by the way - bring your ear plugs if you want to sleep
Where does "normal" leave off and "mountain" start for the CA?
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I've seen the way most pilots drive...
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I think you are into the Polaris and BRP world then aren't you?
IKnowNothing
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Yeah I got locked on Argo level mobility and completely forgot about the Ranger Crew
OldSolduer
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And of course Canadianizing it with all kinds of dumb mods. One thing I'd want though is a wire cutter barrier thing.
