Improved Combat Uniform

[CombatDoc]

How many infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear and shirt under their combats and all the gear ?

Maybe a better question to ask if how long infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear...  I suspect "not very long"  ;D

 

[aesop081]

Maybe a better question to ask if how long infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear...  I suspect "not very long"  ;D

I would say the same, thus, you can wrap them in all the Nomex you want, without a full second layer, you wont accomplish much.

Just in case my previous link did not work, this is the result of exposure to a fire (AH-64 fire during hot-pit refueling at a FARP) when wearing a Nomex flight suit and incomplete second layer:

(You can clearly see where his T-shirt sleeves ended)

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I looked through the whole power point at CDN Aviator's link.

I was not at the presentation that went with it, and don't know if CDN Aviator was, but without attending such presentation, there is no indication whatever that it was a cotton T-shirt under layer that made the difference in the picture. Personally, I read it in reverse: "This is a warning to you as to what happens if your sleeves are NOT rolled down when you fuel: see this guy, he had his sleeves rolled up".

Now this said, protective clothing does not come in one-shape-fits-all-situations and have to be adapted to the actual "threat", IMHO. As with any such situations you equip to handle the most dangerous threat first and go down the line, where you are allowed after a fashion to ignore the more insignificant threats left.

AVGAS fires, with their extreme intensity and "dry" effects are well know to cause severe disfigurations and burns - ever since WWII when fighter pilots came back in horrible condition from bailing out of planes on fire.

Soldiers on the ground almost never face these type of fires, so their combat uniforms don't have to allow for that probability. In fact, in the desert, it is much more important for them to have a uniform that will keep them cool during the day and warm during the colder nights. If that means the uniform has a greater sensibility to AVGAS fire well, so be it. Similarly, if wearing the sleeves up makes the soldier more comfortable, then so what if there is a infinitesimal increase in his/her exposure to the extremely unlikely event of flash fire. Similarly, I feel quite secure in the Navy with my NOMEX NCD. I did not feel that way when we had our old polyester Garrison dress Uniform, especially after merely backing into a hot stove top in the galley for a fraction of a second during an inspection resulted in my jacket instantly fusing to my shirt. 

The real issue, in my mind, should be: If the Improved Combat Uniform, which is really a piece of gear aimed at the soldiers in the field, does not meet the requirements of safety of aviation crew, then should it not be up to the airforce to turn it down and ask for a task appropriate uniform of their own for flying and flight line personnel?

 

[dimsum]

The real issue, in my mind, should be: If the Improved Combat Uniform, which is really a piece of gear aimed at the soldiers in the field, does not meet the requirements of safety of aviation crew, then should it not be up to the airforce to turn it down and ask for a task appropriate uniform of their own for flying and flight line personnel?

The ICU isn't supposed to replace flying clothing for aircrew (that's a separate program whose acronym escapes me at the moment).  You do have a valid point regarding maintenance though; sometimes they wear the old blue flying suits and sometimes they wear CADPAT.  I'm not sure why that is.

 

[aesop081]

I was not at the presentation that went with it, and don't know if CDN Aviator was, but without attending such presentation, there is no indication whatever that it was a cotton T-shirt under layer that made the difference in the picture.

I received a similar presentation where this very incident was briefed and yes, the pilot's cotton t-shirt is what made the difference. If he had been wearing his 100% cotton long underwear, top and bottom, as directed, the damage seen in the photograph would not have occurred to that extent.

AVGAS fires, 

You're not going to find too many military aircraft running on AVGAS.............

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Thank you for the additional info CDN Aviator.

I'm sorry if I offended by saying "AVGAS". To me any fuel you guys put in an airplane is "AVGAS". I don't particularly care about the specific individual designation or types. I only care that it can burn the back off my ship real fast if things go bad.

 

[Good2Golf]

CEMS-ACE is the AF flying gear, and comes in both one and soon to be two-piece (CADPAT TW) fire retardant (can't recall if final material was NOMEX 3 PBi or Kermel.  Point is as CDN Aviator stated, the non-synthetic second layer is require to thermally isolate the skin from the non-burning but very hot FR outer layer.  Not any second layer is okay, that's why UnderArmor shirts were prohibited in AFG, under any type of clothing, FR or non-FR, they'd melt to skin in a heart beat. Either natural fibers like cotton or wool or specialized Wicking synthetic-FR like DriFire(tm) is what should be worn underneath any outer layer where FR qualities are required.

Regards
G2G

 

[PanaEng]

I would say the same, thus, you can wrap them in all the Nomex you want, without a full second layer, you wont accomplish much.

Just in case my previous link did not work, this is the result of exposure to a fire (AH-64 fire during hot-pit refueling at a FARP) when wearing a Nomex flight suit and incomplete second layer:

(You can clearly see where his T-shirt sleeves ended)

Caption says: Sleeves down when refueling.
Meaning he had his nomex sleves, if he was wearing it, rolled up.
Slide 14 list a few characteristics of Nomex including that it does not support combustion, will not melt  and low heat conduction.
cotton under layer will be more comfortable and help insulate but Nomex over skin is better than no Nomex. Untreated cotton can burn pretty quickly and faster if it is saturated with fumes.
Slide 16 shows the nomex stopping the melted nylon which would have made cotton ignite more readily.
Slide 26 shows another instance where the nomex material performed as expected over other non-approved material.

What I find interesting is slide 17 showing that Goretex has some protection from flame/flash.

Thanks for the ppt.

CHIMO!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Don't forget steam burns from fire protective clothing that is water soaked and exposed to very high heat.

 

[aesop081]

Caption says: Sleeves down when refueling.

The caption has nothing to do with the AH-64 incident. It was to reinforce the need to wear "sleeves down" with the newer 2-peice flying ACU.

Meaning he had his nomex sleves, if he was wearing it, rolled up.

The pilot in question was wearing the single-peice aviator overall, no sleeves rolled up. The extent of the injury was caused by not having the second layer. I had the briefing and read the investigation report.

Nomex over skin is better than no Nomex.

Barely.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

:argument:

 

[PanaEng]

:argument:

Really? what does that add to the debate?

CA and I seem to be arguing a similar thing but from diff slants: The need for FULL protective gear.

 

[PanaEng]

Barely.

Bottom line is that safety gear is designed in a certain way to be effective and it should be worn that way.

As for combats, it would suck if I had to wear cotton underneath the combat shirt.  :camo:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Really? what does that add to the debate?

CA and I seem to be arguing a similar thing but from diff slants: The need for FULL protective gear.

Exactly. So why so hard to reach an agreement?

 

[Gunner98]

The old school thought is retarded......I particulary don't like being told when I can wear a jacket or not, or have my sleeves up or down.

Agreed, I can remember a few parades with sleeves up with snow falling around us.

 

[DirtyDog]

if the CoC let them the royals would all be walking around sleeves up, as tight as they could get em 

True enough.  I remember being told the dates we had to be sleeves or or sleeves down and then it became a rule that sleeves were down all the time.  That RSM moved on and it sort of became unofficial that sleeves down was what infanteers did, field or garrison.

 

[OldSolduer]

That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.

Here's one of your fugitives. Careful, he looks a bit tense  ;D

 

[MeatheadMick]

Here's one of your fugitives. Careful, he looks a bit tense  ;D

I was going to say he looks "armed"

 

[PMedMoe]

That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.

No offense but I'm glad I'm not in your unit then.  I like being able to think for myself...