I am a CAF member & I want better pay and benefits (a merged thread)

[dapaterson]

So, CSes get 3 weeks of leave for their first eight years (plus a one-time, one week bonus after 2 years); and 5 weeks of leave after 18 years.  Assuming a 25 year career, that CS will receive: 3x8 +1 + 10x4 + 7*5 = 100 weeks of leave.

A military member, over 25 years, will get 4 weeks leave for 5 years, 5 weeks leave for 20 years, plus 2 days special for Christmas every year.  That makes 5x4 + 20x5 + (2 x 25 / 5) = 130 weeks leave.


In other words, the military member is getting about 30% more leave over the same timeframe.

 

[upandatom]

I'll make one simple point...

If the people under you who "literally get out of my way, and they just about come to the position of attention as well,..." are complaining about pay and benefits, maybe it's in your best interests to listen to them rather than come here and talk about how much respect and authority you command.  While I get that we are paid more than our base civilian counterparts, most troops are smart enough to see that we are losing what were benefits at the same time we being asked to do more with less. This leads good qualified people, like Stokers to leave and make their way elsewhere. When enough people leave because they are disgusted  there will be nobody to man the lines to get the boats off the wall, or stand in the flats at attention to appease your ego.

EDIT: To clarify, I get that you were trying to make a bit of a joke of it all, but it comes across as arrogant and condescending.

Agreed, I am grasping what MARS is saying, although in a condescending and @$$hole way 

A Commision entitles an officer to Respect, but there is a difference between forced respect, and genuine respect, genuine respect that that Officer has earned, worked for and shown he/she deserves.

If those people that are pulling the trigger on those 50s, loading those tracers, doing the work you tell them too arent happy, are not paid well enough, or are plain and simple worried and occupied about their homelife,  then your going to lose that "Respect" and the high quality of work, very fast. The stress that the lack of pay and promise of "we are fixing this" makes your soldiers, airmen and sailors say "WTF is the point of this," they lose faith in you and your ability to protect them. Their work ethic, their morale, their GAF flies out the window. Shortly there after comes a VR Lettter.

I myself have become very bitter over the past two to three years,  as well I know many others that have as well, almost directly from that attitude similar to what is being portrayed. I have had many great officers and NCOs, and some crap ones.

The crap ones always followed their own ambitions, never gave a rats *** about the men and women under their command.  Not caring about their welfare, morale, families, health or mental health.

Overconfident officers are NOT what made the CAF great,  great leaders and the NCMs working hand in hand have.

I will say this, the mass exodus, FRP or not is starting to occur, The CAF is losing some of its best Sailors, Airmen and Soldiers due to stripping away what was given to them due to that hard work. With the increase in social media, and media in general, over the past decade, I find it hard to believe that the next time the world needs the CAF to step in and help, many people will remember how it was "After the Afghan War" and not during.

Yes MARS, I am not saying you are one of the crap ones, not by any means, I am just shedding some light on why your sailors may be unhappy, and yes what you have been doing sounds cool, you are living a movie. Just try to understand from both sides of the fence next time. I had my RSM ask me why I wasnt happy where I am, I told him, I feel abandoned by my unit and by the CAF. All I wanted to do was be closer to my daughter, I had even found positions i could of easily gone into. Now, I am being sent 4000 km farther away from her, even after informing the right people, I cant do this. 

EDIT- Due to a later post from MARS

 

[upandatom]

So, CSes get 3 weeks of leave for their first eight years (plus a one-time, one week bonus after 2 years); and 5 weeks of leave after 18 years.  Assuming a 25 year career, that CS will receive: 3x8 +1 + 10x4 + 7*5 = 100 weeks of leave.

A military member, over 25 years, will get 4 weeks leave for 5 years, 5 weeks leave for 20 years, plus 2 days special for Christmas every year.  That makes 5x4 + 20x5 + (2 x 25 / 5) = 130 weeks leave.


In other words, the military member is getting about 30% more leave over the same timeframe.

your forgetting 20 days sick, and 10 family days for the Civilian, each year.

 

[dapaterson]

your forgetting 20 days sick, and 10 family days for the Civilian, each year.

Civilians do get 15 (not 20) sick days per year.  Military get sick leave as well, as required.  And while there may be some civilians who abuse sick leave, there are also military members who do the same - it's a wash.

Family days are up to 5 per year (37.5 hours, to be precise).  Military members can be given short leave for similar purposes, and I know of many units that provide pers with time off for such things that's off the books.

 

[MJP]

Civilians do get 15 (not 20) sick days per year.  Military get sick leave as well, as required.  And while there may be some civilians who abuse sick leave, there are also military members who do the same - it's a wash.

Family days are up to 5 per year (37.5 hours, to be precise).  Military members can be given short leave for similar purposes, and I know of many units that provide pers with time off for such things that's off the books.

Stop letting facts get in the way of a good rant...Geez don't ya know?  'Muh entitlements.

 

[Journeyman]

The CAF is losing some of its best Sailors, Airmen and Soldiers......

.......as well as some who never miss an opportunity to whine, complain, and wallow in self-pity -- you know, the ones whose self-centred bitterness poison a work environment.  Good riddance.

 

[Northern Ranger]

your forgetting 20 days sick, and 10 family days for the Civilian, each year.

It's nonsense like this that helps build the feelings of contempt towards civilians. Do you work for the treasury board?

 

[upandatom]

.......as well as some who never miss an opportunity to whine, complain, and wallow in self-pity -- you know, the ones whose self-centred bitterness poison a work environment.  Good riddance.

Yes I agree, we are losing both.

It's nonsense like this that helps build the feelings of contempt towards civilians. Do you work for the treasury board?

No I dont get paid that much to work for them. But yes my numbers were corrected, I was going off of what I see daily due to the local CBA,

 

[Lardofthedance]

If you don't like it get out.....Whiners....Entitled.........

Enough of that talk. I dread the idea of of the people who throw those comments around so freely having subordinates, or worse, perceiving themselves as mentors.

Yes, there has been a severe change in the delivery of benefits and compensation, and likely more to follow, but you are correct to voice your concerns here in this open forum, but do not hide these concerns to your CoC or from the next Town Hall, etc, as we DO NOT have a union (as some perceive). Our collective voice funnels through our CoCs.

It's 2014, our people are intelligent, well educated and deserving of our support.

Disagree?? Stand and be heard.

 

[Remius]

You should also be comparing pensions.  The CF pension is much better that the PS one.  You should also look at the fact that the CF regular Force isn't facing layoffs and pink slips like the PS is right now.  Are they harder to fire?  About as hard as it is to fire a CF member. 

The CF doesn't have a claim to being the only ones with low morale and having their benefits clawed back right now I can assure you. 

You are only looking at your own unique bubble upandatom and you don't have all your facts straight either.  Leave with income averaging is something that a member pays for.  It isn't free. And it needs to be approved.  You make it sound like everyone takes all their sick days and all their family related.  They don't.  There are also people that put in overtime and never ask to be compensated for it. 

How many times have you been let off early for long weekends or even on fridays?  How about mess events like men's x-mas dinners?  I can assure you that none of that is the norm in the PS.  Add that all up too.  Adventure training?  Yeah.  Or how about the hour for PT a day?  Right.  How many people take their hour at the end of the day only to disapear...the PS isn't the only one to have claim to malingerers either.

PS get 85% of dental, medical, prescriptions, eyewear covered.  How much do CF mmbers get covered for?  Oh yeah, right. 100%.

And ever try and get a family doctor these days?  Took me almost two years and got an in through a friend.

I've been on both sides of the coin.  Somethings are better on one side than the other.  Instead of whining about what everyone else gets look at what you get and maybe it isn't as bad as you think it is.  Considering most people don't even come close.  The CF is the only employer I can think of where a grade 10 education will get you close to 55 000$ in four years.

There may be a wage disparity with certain trades yes, but we're soldiers first and that is what you are being paid to be.  If you happen to get specialist pay or are in a professional category good for you, you get paid more than the guy who is the same rank and has the same TI as you even though you might actually be doing the same job.

If the grass is truly greener then make the jump.  If it isn't then fine, stay where you are and affect change in a positive way.  Slamming the PS isn't going to help you one bit.

Lardofthedance:  I agree with you to the extent of what you are saying but when people start slamming other organisations for THEIR benefits with a narrow minded ill-informed viewpoint and point at everyonelse it is whining and does create the impression of entitlement. Stand and be heard but make sure you have all the facts and do it constructively.  It will get you much farther.

 

[dapaterson]

Creating a culture of us vs them (civ vs mil, Reg vs res, blue vs red...) is ultimately defeating. 

Looking at Comp & Ben in total - and letting leadership know what is important - is something that everyone should do - be they mil or civ.

That said, leadership are going to identify which hills are worth fighting for.  For example, with the cessation of severance for voluntary releases, accumulated benefits were retained; benefits for those with under 10 years accumulated were doubled, there was additional pay increase granted (which, in the long term, will increase pensions), and there was a one-time ability to take the accumulated severance before retirement.  Had senior leaders tried to fight to keep severance at all costs, it's likely none of those mitigations would have been put into place.

Don't assume that everyone is out to get you personally.  Don't assume that you know all the discussions and deliberations that go into making decisions.

 

[Stoker]

If you don't like it get out.....Whiners....Entitled.........

Enough of that talk. I dread the idea of of the people who throw those comments around so freely having subordinates, or worse, perceiving themselves as mentors.

Yes, there has been a severe change in the delivery of benefits and compensation, and likely more to follow, but you are correct to voice your concerns here in this open forum, but do not hide these concerns to your CoC or from the next Town Hall, etc, as we DO NOT have a union (as some perceive). Our collective voice funnels through our CoCs.

It's 2014, our people are intelligent, well educated and deserving of our support.

Disagree?? Stand and be heard.

In my element its astonding the lack of overall morale that we are facing right now, the amount of personnel with 10, 12  or 14 yrs in that are leaving is truely eyeopening, these are the people that we need to stay and build for the future. All the town halls that I have been to, paint a cheerly picture but it becomes quite evident that the powers to be are truely out of touch with the rank and file. I think its safe to say that the benefits the PS and Military enjoy are somewhat different, however overall are fairly equal. I would like to see what the PS have lost over the last few years in regards to benefits. Yes as leaders we can bring it up through the COC, but in my experience for the most part results are disapointing. I wonder what would happen if the PS lost the kind of benefits that have been disapearing on our end over the last few years?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

In my element its astonding the lack of overall morale that we are facing right now, the amount of personnel with 10, 12  or 14 yrs in that are leaving is truely eyeopening, these are the people that we need to stay and build for the future. All the town halls that I have been to, paint a cheerly picture but it becomes quite evident that the powers to be are truely out of touch with the rank and file.

Exact same argument pretty much word for word that I heard from 1978 to 1988 and yet the CAF still exists somehow...................

I would like to see what the PS have lost over the last few years in regards to benefits. Yes as leaders we can bring it up through the COC, but in my experience for the most part results are disapointing. I wonder what would happen if the PS lost the kind of benefits that have been disapearing on our end over the last few years?

I can't speak for the Federal PS but if it makes you feel better the Ontario PS [excluding the OPP whom sits in someone's pocket it seems] has pretty much taken it dry for 4 or 5 years now.

 

[dapaterson]

Off the top of my head:

PS has lost severance (like the military); increased pension contributions (ditto); new pension rules for new hires - later retirement age; pay icnreaes below inflation (like the military); reduction of 25000 people...

and I'm sure there are more.

 

[Remius]

In my element its astonding the lack of overall morale that we are facing right now, the amount of personnel with 10, 12  or 14 yrs in that are leaving is truely eyeopening, these are the people that we need to stay and build for the future. All the town halls that I have been to, paint a cheerly picture but it becomes quite evident that the powers to be are truely out of touch with the rank and file. I think its safe to say that the benefits the PS and Military enjoy are somewhat different, however overall are fairly equal. I would like to see what the PS have lost over the last few years in regards to benefits. Yes as leaders we can bring it up through the COC, but in my experience for the most part results are disapointing. I wonder what would happen if the PS lost the kind of benefits that have been disapearing on our end over the last few years?

Well I can speak from what've experienced in the last few years:

1- Severance elimination (yes there was a trade off) just like the CF
2- Sick leave will likely be changed this year (not likely to affect the CF)
3- Pension contributions have been raised
4- Workforce adjustment.  Pink slips, layoffs and cuts at every level. (my team alone has gone from 6 civilians to 3 with no plans to replace anytime soon)

CF members need to also remember that while they may suffer the consequences of benefit reductions that the PS suffers at times, they also benifit from the good stuff as well with no need to pay for collective bargaining. 

A few things that CF members get due to the PS:

1-Pay increases are linked to PS collective bargaining.  Paid for by PS members union dues.
2-Access to internal job postings.  CF members do love to state that they are not public servants...until they want to be one.
3-Vacation and pensionable time linked to CF service if they do switch.  See the last part of point number 2.

A lot of CF benefits and compensation, are a result of collective bargaining by PS unions.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A lot of CF benefits and compensation, are a result of collective bargaining by PS unions.

Oh good,...someone else who'll get 'hate PM's" besides myself now...... ;D

 

[Remius]

Oh good,...someone else who'll get 'hate PM's" besides myself now...... ;D

Lol.  I'm not a fan of unions some union activities but I can still recognise their uses and acknowledge the good they can do.

 

[Stoker]

Exact same argument pretty much word for word that I heard from 1978 to 1988 and yet the CAF still exists somehow...................


I can't speak for the Federal PS but if it makes you feel better the Ontario PS [excluding the OPP whom sits in someone's pocket it seems] has pretty much taken it dry for 4 or 5 years now.

I know the CF will march on because there are enough people who won't say anything and will take it just like during the dark days of the CF. The difference I can see and and I see this everyday, is that instead of talking about it, they are leaving and have access to very high paying jobs in the private sector.I can also understand to some extent the loss of some benefits due to a downturn of the ecomomy, however not to the extent to what are seeing now.  Being that i'm in a part of the military and don't work with PS employee's its certainly an eye opening to what they lost and are losing. I always hated the fact we are compared to the PS and linked to them on our benefits. Its nice that they fought on our behalf and gained things, but also lost things as well.  I picked this career and for better or for worst i'm not going anywhere and will speak up against any further loss of benefits. It will be intersting to see if benefits will further decline in the next few years.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Well, aren't we all special?

First, a history lesson (and, yes, I know I'm repeating myself): in the real decades of darkness, when Rick Hillier was still a schoolboy, the army was, as it had been for decades centuries millennia, underpaid - sometimes so grossly underpaid that it had real trouble attracting anything but the absolute dregs of society into its ranks. By the 1960s things needed to change. We, Navy, Army and Air Force, were changing - new, sophisticated weapon systems, alone, required "better" people to operate and maintain them. Successive Canadian Ministers of National Defence, post about 1955, saw this and went to cabinet with proposals to increase defence spending to accomplish two things: a) buy all this fancy new, high tech (for their day) weapons systems and b) hire the right sort of people, people who could command good salaries on "civvie street," to operate and maintain them. Successive governments, cabinets, including the ones led by "friends" of the military, like Lester B Pearson (himself a combat veteran), denied those budget increases. One of the primary goals of one part of Minister Paul Hellyer's experiment was to address  that issue by, in effect, destroying the ranks of corporal and captain in order to give junior soldiers and junior officers real, useful salaries. The other big part of that decision was to "benchmark" selected military occupations to civil service equivalents and adjust military pay accordingly. It was, without putting too fine a point on it, a stroke of bureaucratic genius ... I notice no one here suggests we go back to the old system, going hat in hand to cabinet for pay and allowances, and it would be stupid to do so. You are, for all intents and purposes, public servants and, today, in the 21st century there is a broad and general perception that public sector pay and benefits, including pensions, are too generous. The government is, mainly, resounding to the "will of the people" when it cuts benefits.

Second, some of you amaze me with your ignorance. MARS explained that he loves the responsibilities of command at sea, he is, as are many, many CF members, officers and NCMs alike, living a dream. Do sailors "make way" when he's hurrying to the bridge? Yes, they do. Is that a "perk?" Are they "tugging their forelocks," 21st century style? I suppose some stupid people think so, but I guarantee you that the smart people are making way because they want MARS on his bridge, they know that he is needed there to make decisions - sometimes life and death decisions: decisions about their lives. It is the same in the Army when the CO goes into his command post - the CP crew makes way for him at the map and someone fetches a coffee. Are they "sucking up?" No. They, too, want the CO to make a decision, about all those red marks on that map. It, the command decisions, are his burden, as are the tough decisions on the bridge MARS' burden; and they are not burdens that any ship's captain or any CO can or would share with any of you ... no matter that, very often, they might wish they could. Those of you who think MARS and I and people like us are elitists or that we demand special treatment are amateurs, not military professionals, you want a job, not a calling. You are just uniformed civil servants.

It's been said before, but I'll echo it: get over yourselves. Yes, you're special ... but so are a lot of people, each in their own way, just as "special" as you. You made a career choice, you're welcome to make other choices. Of course it's your right to bitch and to question government polices - I would worry if you weren't bitching, but you are also displaying the enduring characteristics of Canadian civilians: greed and envy ... and it is unbecoming.

 

[cupper]

:goodpost: