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I am a CAF member & I want better pay and benefits (a merged thread)

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George Wallace said:
Besides the College programs, there was a requirement to be a Microsoft Certified Professional.

I was chasing a CS position for near 10 years (and still watch them out of amusement and curiosity), and there's never been a requirement for MCP. 

A cut and paste from a current CS-02 competiton reads "Successful completion of two years of an acceptable post-secondary educational program in computer science, information technology, information management or another specialty relevant to the position to be staffed".
 
Occam said:
I was chasing a CS position for near 10 years (and still watch them out of amusement and curiosity), and there's never been a requirement for MCP. 

A cut and paste from a current CS-02 competiton reads "Successful completion of two years of an acceptable post-secondary educational program in computer science, information technology, information management or another specialty relevant to the position to be staffed".

The wife is a CS 02 and it was a requirement for her to get it done, after she was hired some fifteen years ago. 
 
George Wallace said:
The wife is a CS 02 and it was a requirement for her to get it done for her position, after she was hired some fifteen years ago.

Fixed that for you.

There are not uniform work descriptions for all CS 02, or all EG 06, or all AS 03, or ...
 
This topic is an example of why the CAF continues to lose benefits.

PMQ (now RHU) : Will now be at local rates. Response from serving members, why not they units are below standard.
New members coming in are forced to deal with the new situation with little to no systemic support.

Parking : Will now pay local rates. Response from serving members, why not tax us?

Messes: Must pay membership, but now that you must pay to park...who will continue to come
to the mess that has not already been driven away by other CAF policies?
Response from on high: I don't care, this is how it will be.

We've already lost the motivation of a long service bonus.
Response: Where is it? and we are grateful to get it years late.

....the old Monty Python joke ends...."but I'm not bitter"

 
kratz said:
This topic is an example of why the CAF continues to lose benefits.

PMQ (now RHU) : Will now be at local rates. Response from serving members, why not they units are below standard.
New members coming in are forced to deal with the new situation with little to no systemic support.

Parking : Will now pay local rates. Response from serving members, why not tax us?

Messes: Must pay membership, but now that you must pay to park...who will continue to come
to the mess that has not already been driven away by other CAF policies?
Response from on high: I don't care, this is how it will be.

We've already lost the motivation of a long service bonus.
Response: Where is it? and we are grateful to get it years late.

....the old Monty Python joke ends...."but I'm not bitter"

Because the GoC doesn't need us anymore. The big adventure is over now, CAF photo ops are played out. We're now nothing more to the current government than a budgetary blackhole that can be cut as needed to balance budgets or provide surpluses.

Besides, there apparently is no social contract to support CAF members or veterans. They can cut away because we're nothing more than public servants who have no union and are not allowed to take to the streets to fight to keep the GoC from taking money out of our pockets.

With parking fees, increases to PMQ rates, increased pension contributions and other potential benefits on the chopping block, this is no more than wage cuts that are too indirect to raise the ire of the media.
 
RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
Because the GoC doesn't need us anymore. The big adventure is over now, CAF photo ops are played out. We're now nothing more to the current government than a budgetary blackhole that can be cut as needed to balance budgets or provide surpluses.

Besides, there apparently is no social contract to support CAF members or veterans. They can cut away because we're nothing more than public servants who have no union and are not allowed to take to the streets to fight to keep the GoC from taking money out of our pockets.

With parking fees, increases to PMQ rates, increased pension contributions and other potential benefits on the chopping block, this is no more than wage cuts that are too indirect to raise the ire of the media.

Which is why many view all these changes as "FRP Lite".  Numbers go down but this time the CF doesn't need to pay out severance and release insentives AND they make money at the same time.
 
Schindler's Lift said:
Your comparison doesnt hold water very long.  An MP WO or MWO posted as the NCO IC at his/her base makes @ $83,000 a year.  In many cases they dont get PLD or anyof the environmental allowances you speak of too depending upon posting.  His/Her civilian counterpart would be an RCMP Sgt or SSgt making $90,000 to $103,000 a year.  Similar, if not better, benefits too.  (While they did a longer tour in Afghanistan they also did get 3 LTAs during their 9-12 month roto.

Many other trades have the same gap with their civilian equivalents

The ENG 4s that work for me start at $90k and top out at $105k after 6 years.  Capt/Lt(N) caps out at around $82k in 10 years.  I'll trade the week of leave for the 25% pay raise and less responsibility.  They also earn O/T, so with any travel or other extended working hours, they can easily get more time off.  Maybe a bit of an outlier, as they have a strong union and rolled some of their severance and others things into their salary last bargaining round, but still pretty significant.  This is in the NCR where PLD is zero.

The fact that the unit also doesn't normally give xmas short is kind of salt in the wound, as the work is getting a lot more restrictive and bureaucratic, so it's hard to be effective and feel like you are contributing in a meaningful way.  Add the huge pay and benefit disparity, and you end up with a lot of folks in uniform that keep a close eye on public servant openings and opportunities in the private sector when the platform ISSCs come in for the new ships.

PS pay scales are here by the way;
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp
 
So, the Lt(N) can retire at 42 (*assuming he/she joined at 17) and get 50% of his pay for the rest of his life.

The ENG-04 can retire at age 50; if he joined at age 20, he'd get 60% of his pay for life - but a reduction of 1/4 would be applied - so for 30 years of service, the pension would be 45%.


 
dapaterson said:
The ENG-04 can retire at age 50; if he joined at age 20, he'd get 60% of his pay for life - but a reduction of 1/4 would be applied - so for 30 years of service, the pension would be 45%.
At 20, that Eng04 was probably still in university and paying for the necessary degree.
 
Unlike the Lt(N) whose education was both paid and pensionable.
 
Only for RMC or ROTP; I'm a DEO.  So that 4-5 years of school isn't 'pensionable time'.

I also think you are missing the point; they work for me (as in, I am acting as their supervisor), yet they are paid significantly more work, while not being any more qualified then I am.

Sure, I could retire earlier (51), but over 15 years, that pay gap would be enough on its own to pay off a mortgage.

Also, the civies don't need to move every few years.  Even if I sell the house for more then I bought it for and 'make money' on it, odds are my next mortgage is also higher, so I'm not really any further ahead.

That's simply the reality that folks are faced with now, and why people are getting more reluctant to move now, particularily with all the IRP cuts.  You normally break even, and if they get rid of the coverage for paying the realtor fees, we're foxed.

It is what it is, but lets not pretend that compared to the civil servants, in a lot of trades the military is much better bang for the govt dollar to get the same work done.  But we have no protection from arbitrary cuts to the various benefits and the other death by a thousand cuts changes, so it's an easy cost savings for a bunch of political pricks looking for some savings to fly the balanced budget flags at the next election.
 
Not sure what any of this has to do with the parking rates, but since we are comparing our jobs to our civlian equivilants, lets look at what I did lately:  two weeks ago I had a massive Cormorant helicopter hovering about 15 feet over my head while a couple of SAR techs sorta fastroped onto the deck of my ship and extracted a casualty.  That was followed up shortly after by a small boat swarm "attack" with thunderflashes going off all around me and blank automatic weapons fire being traded back and forth.  Just last week my .50cal gunners blew the $hit out of a small skiff, putting out about 800 rounds of lead in pretty short order.  Next week I'm gonna go blow stuff up.  Then I'm gonna go lob HE shells at an even bigger boat as fast as my guys and gals can reload the weapon, all the while doing manoeuvres with a couple of TICONDOROGA Class Guided Missile Cruisers, a bunch of frigates and an assortment of other kickass ships. At some point the boys and girls from SOFCOM are gonna come around asking if I can help them out with their training again.  I walk down the flats of my ship and people literally get out of my way, and they just about come to the position of attention as well, although I require them to do neither of these things.  When I get to the Bridge, the whole room DOES come to Attention and someon briefs me on what is going on without me even having to open my mouth.  I get paid vacations to some really jammy (and some not so jammy) ports that other people pay to visit.  While I am there I wear this pretty cool looking uniform that tends to gather a lot of pleasant attention from the local women and usually gets me free drinks.

Im not entirely sure what an ENG04 is, but I assume it to be a civlian engineer of some sort.  I envision this person as some poindexter-looking guy who works for NASA and who wears white socks with black pants, a tie with a short sleeve shirt and brings their lunch to work in a sad brown paper bag.  (I am quite sure this ISN'T the case for most Engineers, but from where I sit and given what I do, it makes little difference).  What, of the things I listed above - which is by no means the neatest stuff I have ever done - did this ENG04-person do in the same period??  When is the last time - or first time - someone moved out of HIS way?  When was the last time he fired a heavy machine gun with ACDC playing in his ear?

If this sounds like a pompous, narrow-minded POV and an unfair characterization of others, well, it is supposed to.  It is a ibt toungue-in-cheek, if also a bit a**hole-ish, certainly. What I, indeed all of us in uniform do, is f***ing COOL.  What a LOT of other folks do...isn't. It continually takes my civlian friends to remind me of this, but they do, and often.  When I go to parties with them, THEIR jobs ar never the topic of conversation.

If I was to reduce my job to dollars and cents, then granted, I might not be doing it.  But dollars and cents and bennies isn't what gets me off - living out my childhood fantasy does.  I suppose if I couldn't do this, then dollars and cents and bennies would HAVE to be my goal to numb the pain of sitting in a cubicle cloock-watching the day away waiting for the weekend.

Just do whatever makes you happy.  If your job isn't cool, well that sucks.  You probably shoulda looked for one that was.  If the lack of vacation and moving and parking fees is really the 9th gate of hell, then for the love of everything unholy, GTFO..lol.  I know I would if I felt that way.

You will have to excuse me, the sun is setting and it is about time for a tracer-loaded night time .50cal heavy machine gun shoot.  So cool.
 
MARS said:
Not sure what any of this has to do with the parking rates, but since we are comparing our jobs to our civlian equivilants, lets look at what I did lately:  two weeks ago I had a massive Cormorant helicopter hovering about 15 feet over my head while a couple of SAR techs sorta fastroped onto the deck of my ship and extracted a casualty.  That was followed up shortly after by a small boat swarm "attack" with thunderflashes going off all around me and blank automatic weapons fire being traded back and forth.  Just last week my .50cal gunners blew the $hit out of a small skiff, putting out about 800 rounds of lead in pretty short order.  Next week I'm gonna go blow stuff up.  Then I'm gonna go lob HE shells at an even bigger boat as fast as my guys and gals can reload the weapon, all the while doing manoeuvres with a couple of TICONDOROGA Class Guided Missile Cruisers, a bunch of frigates and an assortment of other kickass ships. At some point the boys and girls from SOFCOM are gonna come around asking if I can help them out with their training again.  I walk down the flats of my ship and people literally get out of my way, and they just about come to the position of attention as well, although I require them to do neither of these things.  When I get to the Bridge, the whole room DOES come to Attention and someon briefs me on what is going on without me even having to open my mouth.  I get paid vacations to some really jammy (and some not so jammy) ports that other people pay to visit.  While I am there I wear this pretty cool looking uniform that tends to gather a lot of pleasant attention from the local women and usually gets me free drinks.

Im not entirely sure what an ENG04 is, but I assume it to be a civlian engineer of some sort.  I envision this person as some poindexter-looking guy who works for NASA and who wears white socks with black pants, a tie with a short sleeve shirt and brings their lunch to work in a sad brown paper bag.  (I am quite sure this ISN'T the case for most Engineers, but from where I sit and given what I do, it makes little difference).  What, of the things I listed above - which is by no means the neatest stuff I have ever done - did this ENG04-person do in the same period??  When is the last time - or first time - someone moved out of HIS way?  When was the last time he fired a heavy machine gun with ACDC playing in his ear?

If this sounds like a pompous, narrow-minded POV and an unfair characterization of others, well, it is supposed to.  It is a ibt toungue-in-cheek, if also a bit a**hole-ish, certainly. What I, indeed all of us in uniform do, is f***ing COOL.  What a LOT of other folks do...isn't. It continually takes my civlian friends to remind me of this, but they do, and often.  When I go to parties with them, THEIR jobs ar never the topic of conversation.

If I was to reduce my job to dollars and cents, then granted, I might not be doing it.  But dollars and cents and bennies isn't what gets me off - living out my childhood fantasy does.  I suppose if I couldn't do this, then dollars and cents and bennies would HAVE to be my goal to numb the pain of sitting in a cubicle cloock-watching the day away waiting for the weekend.

Just do whatever makes you happy.  If your job isn't cool, well that sucks.  You probably shoulda looked for one that was.  If the lack of vacation and moving and parking fees is really the 9th gate of hell, then for the love of everything unholy, GTFO..lol.  I know I would if I felt that way.

You will have to excuse me, the sun is setting and it is about time for a tracer-loaded night time .50cal heavy machine gun shoot.  So cool.

This was a good read and point taken. Too bad that in the course of your career you'll only get to live your dream maybe 3-4 years tops (less than that if you count actual days at sea I'm sure)? The rest of the time you'll likely be that guy in the cubicle farm... not to rain on your parade... or .50cal shoot  :)
 
MARS said:
Just do whatever makes you happy.  If your job isn't cool, well that sucks.  You probably shoulda looked for one that was.  If the lack of vacation and moving and parking fees is really the 9th gate of hell, then for the love of everything unholy, GTFO..lol.  I know I would if I felt that way.

Well said................I get asked a lot why I got out when I was halfway to retirement, and I always say 'It started feeling too much like a job".   

So it was time to go get 'a job'.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Well said................I get asked a lot why I got out when I was halfway to retirement, and I always say 'It started feeling too much like a job".   

So it was time to go get 'a job'.

And at the time that you did, it was being turned into that.  They started taking the 'fun' out of the job and making it just that, a 'job'. 
 
You're fortunate MARS in that you've got what you believe to be your dream job.  You've worked hard and made the correct decisions to bring you to this position you now enjoy and I'm not taking anything away from you or that.  And you're bang on.  If your job sucks that much it is time to look for an exit.

But, you don't really have a dog in this fight so to speak due to your present position as unless I'm mistaken you also have the benefit/privilege of a CO/XO parking sign and slot right next to the ship on the jetty.  Which is something that many here won't get to enjoy.  They'll be fighting the parking wars out there, and that, will be a understandable sore point to many of them. 

I too don't have a dog in this fight at the moment either due to my present posting with the exception that the only parking I'll be able to get come Sept is visitor if available.
 
Transporter said:
This was a good read and point taken. Too bad that in the course of your career you'll only get to live your dream maybe 3-4 years tops (less than that if you count actual days at sea I'm sure)? The rest of the time you'll likely be that guy in the cubicle farm... not to rain on your parade... or .50cal shoot  :)


Not really, I served for 36+ years ... a lot of it in the big cubicle farm ... there were some frustrating days, weeks, probably months but I can honestly say that I was still having "fun" up until the last day. Now, in the last years the "fun" was, in fact, responsibility, without thanks, but I knew the consequences of my decisions; I couldn't see them, no one came and thanked me, no one said, "boy aren't we lucky that ___ Campbell and his folks in D____ are doing such a great job," but I always told my staff how and why what we did mattered, how we made a positive, measurable contribution to the combat effectiveness of ships at sea, units in the field and in the air. It was, I think, enough ... I guess one of my fondest memories is my own farewell party: a good crowd of friends and colleagues, lots of laughter. We, most of us, my friends, bosses, colleagues, staff, enjoyed our work - we didn't do it for the  money, that's for sure!
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Not really, I served for 36+ years ... a lot of it in the big cubicle farm ... there were some frustrating days, weeks, probably months but I can honestly say that I was still having "fun" up until the last day. Now, in the last years the "fun" was, in fact, responsibility, without thanks, but I knew the consequences of my decisions; I couldn't see them, no one came and thanked me, no one said, "boy aren't we lucky that ___ Campbell and his folks in D____ are doing such a great job," but I always told my staff how and why what we did mattered, how we made a positive, measurable contribution to the combat effectiveness of ships at sea, units in the field and in the air. It was, I think, enough ... I guess one of my fondest memories is my own farewell party: a good crowd of friends and colleagues, lots of laughter. We, most of us, my friends, bosses, colleagues, staff, enjoyed our work - we didn't do it for the  money, that's for sure!

I'm with you... have spent more than a few years in cubicle farms myself - currently on fifth cubicle farm tour and counting - and have enjoyed the vast majority of it. Just didn't seem like MARS was the cubicle farm type is all. As noted, I get his point.
 
MARS said:
If I was to reduce my job to dollars and cents, then granted, I might not be doing it.  But dollars and cents and bennies isn't what gets me off - living out my childhood fantasy does.  I suppose if I couldn't do this, then dollars and cents and bennies would HAVE to be my goal to numb the pain of sitting in a cubicle cloock-watching the day away waiting for the weekend.

Just do whatever makes you happy.  If your job isn't cool, well that sucks.  You probably shoulda looked for one that was.  If the lack of vacation and moving and parking fees is really the 9th gate of hell, then for the love of everything unholy, GTFO..lol.  I know I would if I felt that way.

Exactly.

Not to sound arrogant/naive, but listening to some of my non-military friends talk about their jobs makes me very, very glad of my career choice, even with the moving around and such.  Like MARS, I've also travelled the world in some awesome (and some not-so-awesome) spots, worked with amazing folks and had more than a few "once in a lifetime" experiences.  Yes, there is quite a bit of time away from home but I'm also friends with airline pilots and FIFO mining geologists who spend as much or more away from home, and I usually beat them in the "so what did you do today?" story competition.  ;) 

Another big difference I notice between the military and the private sector is, as ERC has alluded to, the camaraderie and networking opportunities.  Most of my non-military friends go to after-work drinks and such, but aside from that they seem to be happy to get away from work people ASAP after hours. 

With the amount of education opportunities in the CF (ASC, sponsored post-grad, etc.) there really shouldn't be an excuse to stay in a job rut.  If free education isn't your thing, there's always OT/CT. 
 
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