Honours & Awards (merged)

[Sub_Guy]

The 6 months between rotations is what I disagree with.  Why does it have to be that?  Where is this policy written?


BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD.

This answers the “can I get both” question from the poster a few posts up.  Since they qualify for both in the same 6 month period.

 

[Brasidas]

The 6 months between rotations is what I disagree with.  Why does it have to be that?  Where is this policy written?


BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD.

This answers the “can I get both” question from the poster a few posts up.  Since they qualify for both in the same 6 month period.

This is not for my own benefit, nor do I see that as a straight-forward answer.

The mbr did not qualify for both in their first 30 days, they qualified for one. They then stayed in theatre for at least another 6 month period. How is that considered to be "the person meeting the criteria for both in the same 6 month period"?

I am trying to get answers through other channels, including that suggested by Infanteer.

In the meantime, if you or another mbr can clarify how they do or do not qualify under those terms, I would appreciate it.

EITS, did the mbrs you're refering to stay in theatre for 210 or more days?

 

[tomahawk6]

How long was the deployment period ? 6 months. I would think that additional tours would merit a gong that's how our's work.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

How long was the deployment period ? 6 months. I would think that additional tours would merit a gong that's how our's work.

Our systems are markedly different.  We do not get a medal at end of a tour of duty (a posting in our speak).  A rack with 10-12 medals is considered significant, even after 30 plus years of service.

 

[dimsum]

A rack with 10-12 medals is considered significant, even after 30 plus years of service.

10-12?! 

 

[Winds]

Brasidas, unfortunately the qualifying dates need to be more than 180 days apart. If I understand correctly, the mbr has not been in theatre any time 180 days before or after the date they qualified for the GCS-EXP. In this case, the mbr can either receive the GSM-EXP with bar or the GCS-EXP, not both medals.

If they return to theatre sometime in the future, they would immediately qualify for the GSM-EXP and once they have a cumulative 210 days in theatre, exclusive of their 30 days in Iraq to qualify for the GCS-EXP, then they would qualify for the bar.

This was the case for many mbrs on my deployment to Op IMPACT, most opted for the GCS-EXP alone over the GSM-EXP with bar. Its been a sore spot for many but this is what the regulation is.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

EITS, did the mbrs you're refering to stay in theatre for 210 or more days?

Some were there for 6+ months (our Det HQ folks as an example, who were also flyers).  If they flew 30+ missions, they only got the GCS regardless of how many days they had towards the GSM because, as mentioned, there needs to be 180 days between theatre entrance/exit dates.

*not saying I agree with this policy as the proper delineation;  but I also saw the emails direct from DHR that Dolphin_Hunter was kind enough to forward to me at one point a few years ago...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

10-12?! 

As the folks who run this mounting business are both CAF members, I just assume the jobs they do aren't Walts...

https://www.facebook.com/MartelsMedalMounting/photos/a.598353283555630/2551299191594353/?type=3&theater

A few other pics attached of some exemplary service to Canada.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Brasidas, unfortunately the qualifying dates need to be more than 180 days apart. If I understand correctly, the mbr has not been in theatre any time 180 days before or after the date they qualified for the GCS-EXP. In this case, the mbr can either receive the GSM-EXP with bar or the GCS-EXP, not both medals.

If they return to theatre sometime in the future, they would immediately qualify for the GSM-EXP and once they have a cumulative 210 days in theatre, exclusive of their 30 days in Iraq to qualify for the GCS-EXP, then they would qualify for the bar.

This was the case for many mbrs on my deployment to Op IMPACT, most opted for the GCS-EXP alone over the GSM-EXP with bar. Its been a sore spot for many but this is what the regulation is.

They were given a choice??  The GCS is considered the 'higher' (not the right word...the proper one eludes me right now) award;  LRP folks were not given a 'choice'.  In fact, one MWO I know did not do 30 mission his first ROTO, received the GSM.  Went back for the 2nd ROTO...qual'd for the GCS.  He had to return the GSM and then get the GCS.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As the folks who run this mounting business are both CAF members, I just assume the jobs they do aren't Walts...

https://www.facebook.com/MartelsMedalMounting/photos/a.598353283555630/2551299191594353/?type=3&theater

A few other pics attached of some exemplary service to Canada.

Wow. I wonder how many 'missed birthdays', 'missed graduations' etc are represented there....  :cdnsalute:

 

[PuckChaser]

Wow. I wonder how many 'missed birthdays', 'missed graduations' etc are represented there....  :cdnsalute:

Quick estimate is the first example has a minimum of 4 years service deployed on operations.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

This is not for my own benefit, nor do I see that as a straight-forward answer.

The mbr did not qualify for both in their first 30 days, they qualified for one. They then stayed in theatre for at least another 6 month period. How is that considered to be "the person meeting the criteria for both in the same 6 month period"?

I am trying to get answers through other channels, including that suggested by Infanteer.

In the meantime, if you or another mbr can clarify how they do or do not qualify under those terms, I would appreciate it.

EITS, did the mbrs you're refering to stay in theatre for 210 or more days?

It seems that the interpretation that you are getting here is correct.  I was intrigued by your question so I pinged DH+R myself - I have sent you that feedback via other means.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Anything you can elaborate on here PPCLI Guy?  Was the gen provided previously by DH & R revisited and amended?

(Doesn't pertain to me personally, but it might to some people I know who did HQ tours with the LRP Det or other stints in the ATF-I org...)

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The policy, while narrow in its intent - and more so in its application - is indeed valid, it strikes me as unfair, or at the least uncharitable.  Nonetheless, it is the policy.  It is possible it will be challenged in the New Year.

Sorry I can't add more - the bottom line is that this is the policy, and it is being ruthlessly applied.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Copy.

 

[Brasidas]

So I have what I was looking for, clear, written policy:

From CANFORGEN 201/18:
“THE GSM, OR BAR TO THE GSM, MAY ONLY BE AWARDED TO AN ELIGIBLE PERSON WHO IS IN AN ELIGIBLE LOCATION 180 DAYS OR MORE EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER THE DAY THEY QUALIFIED FOR THE GCS OR THEIR LATEST BAR TO THE GCS”

So expanding on this into examples:

A mbr who does 180 days in Kuwait, then gets tasked to Iraq for 30 days is eligible both.

A mbr who does 210 days in Kuwait gets the GSM with bar.

A mbr who does 210 days in Kuwait, then gets tasked to Iraq for 30 days is eligible for both and does not get a bar for the GSM.

A mbr who does 30 days in Iraq then at least 180 days in Kuwait gets both.

A mbr who does 30 days in Iraq then at least 210 days in Kuwait gets both, with a bar for the GSM.

Any variation which includes the GCS, 30 days in Kuwait, and being in Kuwait for the 180th day after qualifying for the GCS gets both. For example, some of my troops who've bounced around Lebanon, Jordan, and Bahrain on support tasks have qualified for medals related to operations there. They could also qualify for the GSM while all of this is going on.

If a mbr is returning to theatre for a TAV, the relevant date which decides whether they get a GSM or not is the 180th day after they qualified for the GCS, not the date that they returned from theatre.

Why this is relevant and not nitpicking is that I now have people who are in theatre for another eight months who are likely run into these qualifying criteria over the course of their time in theatre. I will not be here for all of that time, but I want them and their future supervisors to be aware of exactly what the criteria are. Not to write their schedules around collecting medals, but to get them recognition where appropriate.

If anybody is confused by any of this, please pipe up. I appreciate folks like PPCLI guy following up on this.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I read that before I had my 2nd coffee.  :stars:

That's good news for your people;  the CANFORGEN was a nice addition, but honestly, it should have been out a lot earlier than it was.  In our case, the LRP Det had closed up shop and returned to Canada after 3+ years of sustained ops.  How long should it take to promulgate clarifying direction?  A month, maybe 2?

 

[jeffb]

So how about a situation in which someone does over 30 days in Kuwait and then over 210 days in Iraq with no break in-between and no-return to Kuwait after Iraq. GCS-EXP with Bar right?

 

[Brasidas]

So how about a situation in which someone does over 30 days in Kuwait and then over 210 days in Iraq with no break in-between and no-return to Kuwait after Iraq. GCS-EXP with Bar right?

Yup.

Expanding that, even if they flew back through Kuwait for the 241st day, they're not getting a GSM.

If they do 30 days in Kuwait, then 209 days in Iraq, then 2 days in Kuwait, they get a GSM.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in another thread, this A.M.,

Attached is a link to an interesting article regarding the potential to retroactively award the Victoria Cross to members of the Canadian Armed Forces who served in Afghanistan.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/victoria-cross-afghanistan-rick-hillier-1.5796078

Good.

While they are at it, perhaps they will also consider the potential to retroactively award a Victoria Cross to an RCAF aircrew member who served in Bomber Command operations over occupied Europe.

51% were killed on operations, 12% were killed or wounded in non-operational accidents and 13% became prisoners of war or evaders. Only 24% survived the war unscathed.

Only the Nazi U-Boat force suffered a higher casualty rate.

https://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/bomber-command/bomber-commands-losses/

For that, one VC was awarded ( posthumous ).