Honours & Awards (merged)

[slayer/raptor]

That is good to hear, thanks a lot. Hopefully it will not take 2 years to get results.

 

[brihard]

That is good to hear, thanks a lot. Hopefully it will not take 2 years to get results.

Anything that goes to Rideau Hall will take a while. I got put in for something in December 2013, and found out in August 2015, for a Feb 2016 presentation. My understanding is that this is par for the course for Rideau HAll. Anything that stays within the cAF could potentially be faster.

Our system of H&A baffles me in its glacial pace. I don't se any real reason we couldn't action nominations much more quickly.

 

[Haggis]

Our system of H&A baffles me in its glacial pace. I don't se any real reason we couldn't action nominations much more quickly.

There have been several recent high-profile "oopsies" in the US H&A system, where an award was processed and awarded quickly only to be reviewed after the fact when information came to light that, had it been known at the time of nomination, would likely have stopped or amended the process.  In that we take time to process our H&A lessens (but does not eliminate) the possibility of similar errors. 

 

[Pusser]

Anything that goes to Rideau Hall will take a while. I got put in for something in December 2013, and found out in August 2015, for a Feb 2016 presentation. My understanding is that this is par for the course for Rideau HAll. Anything that stays within the cAF could potentially be faster.

Our system of H&A baffles me in its glacial pace. I don't se any real reason we couldn't action nominations much more quickly.

I hope you didn't find out in 2013 that you were nominated!  The proposed recipient is not supposed to be told.  The only time he or she is supposed to find out is when the award has been confirmed (i.e. the GG or other approving authority has signed off on it).

I would have to argue that the "glacial pace" is more within the chain of command than Rideau Hall (at least as far as determining the award is concerned).  Once DH&R receives it and is confident that it will pass, it goes to the CF Decorations Advisory Committee (chaired by the CDS), which meets as often as necessary (based on number of files - during Afghanistan, it was quite frequently).  After CFDAC has agreed to the list, the Chancellery can actually process it quite quickly.  Keep in mind though that it takes time to organize an event that brings 40-60 recipients together (along with their guests) from all across Canada to attend one of maybe three or four time slots available at Rideau Hall in  a year.  The GG is a busy guy and presenting honours is only one of his many duties.

 

[brihard]

I hope you didn't find out in 2013 that you were nominated!  The proposed recipient is not supposed to be told.  The only time he or she is supposed to find out is when the award has been confirmed (i.e. the GG or other approving authority has signed off on it).

I would have to argue that the "glacial pace" is more within the chain of command than Rideau Hall (at least as far as determining the award is concerned).  Once DH&R receives it and is confident that it will pass, it goes to the CF Decorations Advisory Committee (chaired by the CDS), which meets as often as necessary (based on number of files - during Afghanistan, it was quite frequently).  After CFDAC has agreed to the list, the Chancellery can actually process it quite quickly.  Keep in mind though that it takes time to organize an event that brings 40-60 recipients together (along with their guests) from all across Canada to attend one of maybe three or four time slots available at Rideau Hall in  a year.  The GG is a busy guy and presenting honours is only one of his many duties.

I knew I was put in for something, but figured it was a Comd Commendation or something. Never expected it to go to Rideau Hall.

One neat thing the GG is doing now, is he's holding 'exported' honours presentation events. Mine was presented in Vancouver, and we had BC, Yukon, Alberta, and Saskawtchewan represented. I believe the intent is to bring honours and awards out to Canadians. The event I was at had a bunch of Caring Canadian awards, toekn long service awards for emergency services, bravery and meritorious service decorations. I got to meat some people who had done some relly fantastic stuff.

 

[mariomike]

The GG is a busy guy and presenting honours is only one of his many duties.

Handing out well deserved  bravery medals to five-year olds.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/bravery-medal-for-girl-5-who-saved-mom-brother-in-car-wreck-1.3300087

Received my 20 and 30 year ESMs both on the same day. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

I knew I was put in for something, but figured it was a Comd Commendation or something. Never expected it to go to Rideau Hall.

One neat thing the GG is doing now, is he's holding 'exported' honours presentation events. Mine was presented in Vancouver, and we had BC, Yukon, Alberta, and Saskawtchewan represented. I believe the intent is to bring honours and awards out to Canadians. The event I was at had a bunch of Caring Canadian awards, toekn long service awards for emergency services, bravery and meritorious service decorations. I got to meat some people who had done some relly fantastic stuff.

Sounds like it was quite the gig.  :nod:  Like a Dothraki wedding.

 

[Pusser]

Busy handing out bravery medals to five-year olds.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/bravery-medal-for-girl-5-who-saved-mom-brother-in-car-wreck-1.3300087

Received my 20 and 30 year ESMs both on the same day. 

The GG and the Chancellery have nothing to do with that award.  That medal came from the Royal Canadian Humane Association (which is private).  The GG only awards honours from the Crown (e.g. Cross of Valour, Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, ESM, etc)

I would argue though that the delays in your ESM are internal to your own organization.  Although the Chancellery processes them, they have to wait until the organizations actually forward the nominations.  Also note that the ESM for Emergency Medical Services didn't exist until 1994, so is it possible that you got the 20 and 30 year recognition at the same time because it wasn't available at the 20 year mark?

 

[brihard]

Sounds like it was quite the gig.  :nod:  Like a Dothraki wedding.

Derp. Good catch. No, the hors d'oeuvres were better than that.

 

[mariomike]

The GG and the Chancellery have nothing to do with that award.  That medal came from the Royal Canadian Humane Association (which is private).  The GG only awards honours from the Crown (e.g. Cross of Valour, Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, ESM, etc)

My mistake. I was thinking of a different five-year old. Equally well deserved.
https://www.gg.ca/honour.aspx?id=167498&t=3&ln=Rosenberg

Also note that the ESM for Emergency Medical Services didn't exist until 1994, so is it possible that you got the 20 and 30 year recognition at the same time because it wasn't available at the 20 year mark?

Our Department did not start sending them in until 2005. They preferred, and still do, to handle their Honours and Awards at the Departmental level.
Not going to argue if that was / is right or wrong. There are three ways of doing things. That's just the way it was / is. KEEP BACK 200 feet years. 
General Rohmer, wearing the old shoulder patch here, does the honours.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Derp. Good catch. No, the hors d'oeuvres were better than that.

Better hors d'oeuvres than hors de combat at a Dothraki event.

 

[Pusser]

Our Department did not start sending them in until 2005. They preferred, and still do, to handle their Honours and Awards at the Departmental level.

Sadly, that's not unique.  There are a number of departments across the country who feel that since they pay their people, they should be the ones to hand out the awards.  I can understand that, but would argue that nominating personnel for an honour from the Crown doesn't take away from that and more importantly, it's and honour from the CROWN!  Maybe it's just me, but I think that a medal personally instituted by Her Majesty is a little more prestigious than one by a municipal politician.  The local department can still organize the ceremony and party (ESMs are not presented at Rideau Hall).

On a similar note, should somebody win a Bravery award (e.g. Star of Courage), his/her ESM can be mounted and worn with it.  This is not the case for a departmental or municipal award.

 

[mariomike]

I can understand that, but would argue that nominating personnel for an honour from the Crown doesn't take away from that and more importantly, it's and honour from the CROWN!

No offense, but does "the CROWN!" have any idea what it is like to be a cop, fireman or paramedic in this town?

They don't even have to parade 12 days/24 Nights.  Once in a 30 day period that has 3 scheduled parades in it if the unit will actually enforce the NES policy.  Depending on a unit parade schedule this could be as little as 7 parades for a unit that stands up in Sep and stands down in May.  I have seen a unit schedule based on budget restrictions in the past consist of Sep - Nov, stand down for Dec, Jan/Feb and Mar have evenings designated as on ramps if money was available so 5 evening parades kept the mbrs safe for that period.  Apr started the new FY so they had to do 1 day in Apr and 1 Day in May to finish off the training year.

That will get a CD?

I don't mind my medals come from a crack-smoking mayor and not "the CROWN!" Don't mind at all, because he signs my pay and pension check. 

I know what they represent. Responding to 9-1-1 calls 40 hours a week, year after year, in this town is stressful.

On a similar note, should somebody win a Bravery award (e.g. Star of Courage), his/her ESM can be mounted and worn with it.

Like Old Blue Eyes used to sing, our Department has done it their way ever since I can remember.

Once again,

KEEP BACK 200 feet years. 

 

[brihard]

Sadly, that's not unique.  There are a number of departments across the country who feel that since they pay their people, they should be the ones to hand out the awards.  I can understand that, but would argue that nominating personnel for an honour from the Crown doesn't take away from that and more importantly, it's and honour from the CROWN!  Maybe it's just me, but I think that a medal personally instituted by Her Majesty is a little more prestigious than one by a municipal politician.  The local department can still organize the ceremony and party (ESMs are not presented at Rideau Hall).

On a similar note, should somebody win a Bravery award (e.g. Star of Courage), his/her ESM can be mounted and worn with it.  This is not the case for a departmental or municipal award.

I have seen Canadian Honours System medals and decorations mounted with other provincial/municipal long service / bravery honours and awards in the emergency services. While a small subset of extremely loud people are quick to trumpet the 'rules' on national honours and awards- those supposed 'rules' are nothing more than custom and convention, as there is no law that precludes mounting national honours and awards with provincial or municipal ones. I think the value of any particular honour or award is more contingent on how it is viewed within the organization and community one exists in than who issues it. For instance, I have an award from Mothers Against Drunk Driving that I value more than if, say, I were to be awarded some commemorative medal for having the least natural hair growth of any given Sgt in my unit on the year such a medal is issued because Her Majesty completed another ten spins around the sun.

While I, personally, would likely not mount anything other than national honours and awards with my existing set, I don't have any issue with those who are awarded such honours by a different level of government and who mount them together in accordance with their services uniform standards.

 

[mariomike]

I have seen Canadian Honours System medals and decorations mounted with other provincial/municipal long service / bravery honours and awards in the emergency services.

We only wore our dress uniforms on duty when going to court.

The rest of the time, you simply wore a little piece of navy blue cloth sewn onto the lower left sleeve of your Operations jacket.
One maple leaf for every five years on the job.

 

[Pusser]

I have seen Canadian Honours System medals and decorations mounted with other provincial/municipal long service / bravery honours and awards in the emergency services. While a small subset of extremely loud people are quick to trumpet the 'rules' on national honours and awards- those supposed 'rules' are nothing more than custom and convention, as there is no law that precludes mounting national honours and awards with provincial or municipal ones. I think the value of any particular honour or award is more contingent on how it is viewed within the organization and community one exists in than who issues it. For instance, I have an award from Mothers Against Drunk Driving that I value more than if, say, I were to be awarded some commemorative medal for having the least natural hair growth of any given Sgt in my unit on the year such a medal is issued because Her Majesty completed another ten spins around the sun.

While I, personally, would likely not mount anything other than national honours and awards with my existing set, I don't have any issue with those who are awarded such honours by a different level of government and who mount them together in accordance with their services uniform standards.

It's a little bit more than custom and convention.  It's all laid out in  Privy Council no P.C. 1998-59, which says:

OTHER DECORATIONS AND MEDALS

(The order of precedence is as set out for Other Decorations and Medals in section 1.)

6. The Newfoundland Volunteer War Service Medal has the same precedence as the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal.

7. The insignia of orders, decorations and medals not listed in this Directive, as well as foreign awards, the award of which has not been approved by the Government of Canada, shall not be mounted or worn in conjunction with orders, decorations and medals listed in this Directive.

8. The insignia of orders, decorations and medals shall not be worn by anyone other than the recipient of the orders, decorations or medals.

NOTE: Policy regarding the wearing of non-authorized awards

Only the insignia of orders, decorations and medals officially awarded under the authority of the Crown or that the wearing of which has been authorized by the Crown may be worn. Only the actual recipient of an honour can wear its insignia; no family member or any person other than the original recipient may wear the insignia of an order, decoration or medal. Insignia that are purchased or otherwise acquired may be used for display purpose only and cannot be worn on the person in any form or manner.

 

[mariomike]

Pusser is right. Medals from the Crown probably would not go well with some Emergency Services ( unofficial ) medals. 

Never saved a life medal.

My Daddy is a Chief medal.

I know someone at Headquarters medal.

I cook a good pot of Ragu medal.

Eight to Four medal. ( HQ staff only. )

My face was in the newspaper medal.

I believe our own press medal.

etc...

But, times are changing. If you love your medals, I can see our Emergency Services going this way with our Firefighters and Paramedics in the not too distant future,
http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/fdny/downloads/pdf/about/medal-day-book-2016.pdf

Police
http://www.huntzman.com/Images_Collectors/nypd_medals.jpg

 

[Pusser]

There is also the matter of the difference between local and national recognition.  National honours (e.g. the ESMs) are recognized nationally and the information is accessible from a national database.  Local ones, not so much.

On a somewhat related note, a number of municipal forces down south were caught making up their own awards (which is OK), but using the insignia of existing US Armed Forces medals (the ribbons anyway), which is not OK.  In many cases the insignia they were using were for Armed Forces deeds that were not in any way related to what the municipal force was recognizing. In other words, forces were recognizing things like long service with what could look like a US Army medal for service in an embassy.

 

[brihard]

Nonetheless, there is no actual law saying that what I referred to cannot be done. While we may think it's tacky, it's nonetheless legal, and clearly is kosher under the uniform regulations of at least some police forces. There is no means by which the Privy Council approved order of precedence can be enforced.

Some provincial medlas have been incorporated into the national order of precedence, others have not. Ontario has medals for police and fir braery that are kosher to wear. Alberta and Saskatchewan both have centennial medals that are part of the national order of precendence. Hell, the British Columbia Fire long service medal is part of the national order of precedence, whereas the Alberta Police OFficer Long Service Recognition Medal is not. Clearly it's simply a matter of which provinces have gotten around to pushing their honours and awards through the grinder at Rideau Hall.

At the end of the day what stops people from combining their order or precedence recognized medals with other medals and decorations is merely good taste, not any actual rule or regulation that has legal teeth. An honour or award is no less 'official' if it comes from a municipality or province, it's just from a different level of government.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Pusser is right. Medals from the Crown probably would not go well with some Emergency Services ( unofficial ) medals. 

Never saved a life medal.

My Daddy is a Chief medal.

I know someone at Headquarters medal.

I cook a good pot of Ragu medal.

Eight to Four medal. ( HQ staff only. )

My face was in the newspaper medal.

I believe our own press medal.

etc...

But, times are changing. If you love your medals, I can see our Emergency Services going this way with our Firefighters and Paramedics in the not too distant future,
http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/fdny/downloads/pdf/about/medal-day-book-2016.pdf

Police
http://www.huntzman.com/Images_Collectors/nypd_medals.jpg

You forgot the: 'We were only given a few medals to hand out, so I will give one to myself and the rest to my willing stooges' medal