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Home Equity Assistance & "Military Families Pushed to Financial Ruin" (Merge)

Have you applied for 100% HEA out of Core and been denied?

  • Yes. No further action taken.

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Yes. But I was told applying for it was futile.

    Votes: 9 17.0%
  • Yes. I am currently grieving the decision.

    Votes: 5 9.4%
  • Yes. My grievance is at the CDS.

    Votes: 1 1.9%
  • No. I have not applied for 100% HEA out of core.

    Votes: 24 45.3%
  • No. (I have 100% HEA out of Core awarded).

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • No. I was dissuaded from selling/moving/posting due to large home equity loss.

    Votes: 9 17.0%

  • Total voters
    53
WhereYouTo said:
"I'm not saying the CF should buy the homes if we cant sell but why not work it into the contract with Brookfield?"

As time goes on, recognizing that I'm biased, I think that the CF should take my home off my hands if an excessive period of time has past - like say I've gone through all my envelopes.  I don't even want fair market value.  Just near my purchase price.

A person on my street worked for CHMC - they have a guaranteed sales clause - although I heard that is going.  I was pretty jealous 90 days after their house went on the market and CHMC took it off there hands.  I'm in the same boat as some of the others.  Posted this past summer, house still hasn't sold.  We went for the move, so now we have two houses.  Dealing with Brookfield now for TDRA, and they've been mostly good, but I don't like the way the system is setup - I feel like the military should have a keen interest in whether my house has sold or not.  I know I'm a grown-up, but I really didn't feel like I got a lot of good advice on what I should done in a soft market.

Happy to move around, be deployed, whatever, -  that is what I signed up for.  I'm not so happy about putting my family's finances at risk - probably the first time I've seriously considered an exit strategy out of the military.  There is a lot of liability owning two houses.

Anyways, thought I'd mope around - misery loves company.

The last house I bought was empty when I bought it.  Seems the previous owner worked for one of the major banks in Canada and the bank posted the employee across the country.  After a few months of having the house on the market and not sold the bank (the employer) bought the house so the employee could move.  When it came time for me to buy it the sale price was listed, I came in with a lower offer and when it was rejected they basically came back saying if you are going to counter offer don't even bother countering below X value which was essentially what the bank had invested in it.  The X amount was pretty near where we were going to counter anyway so we agreed to that price and bought the house. 

Now, I know there are various TB guidelines that will essentially stop such an arrangement by DND but I wonder if relocation companies like Brookfield had ever considered the business case for expanding their business to buying and reselling the homes after a certain point.  Considering there is already an up to $15k home equity amount built into the envelopes (which I'm most likely going to have to make use of by the time we are able to sell) plus 6 months of separation allowance (so far) at $1700 a month, it seems there is already $25,200 being spent because I can't sell. 

As it stands now my situation, and the situations of many other members, is only costing not only DND a bucket load of money but it's also costing the members both money and stress as their families remain separated.  If it wasn't for the fact that I want to move my family I'd be inclined to keep the house at the price we wanted and if it doesn't sell I'd just keep sucking the IR money for as long as I could.  Its almost worth the $20+ K a year in govt money to wait it out for a price I want for my home. 
 
In the early 90's the practice of purchasing unsold homes was in place.  In some markets it had the effect of further depressing prices and eventually the policy was discontinued.
 
For sale by me, and therefore costing DND big bucks in separation and HEA or for sale by a holding company....it's still for sale.  But like I said, it would never fly for a whole host of other reasons I'm sure.
 
Its all coming out in the wash now...

http://ottawacitizen.com/business/local-business/government-pays-35m-to-end-relocation-contract-dispute

The Conservative government paid $35 million to quietly settle a lawsuit over the handling of bids for a relocation deal that an Ontario Superior Court judge assailed as “outrageous” and rigged by bureaucrats to favour the winning bidder.

The Public Accounts show payments went to Envoy Relocation Services last year for “settlement of claim for missed financial opportunities” from the three departments: the RCMP, National Defence and Treasury Board.

The Integrated Relocation Program costs the government about $300 million a year to relocate employees to new postings — not including moving costs, which are covered by another contract. The government relocates between 15,000 and 20,000 federal employees a year, with the military accounting for 85 per cent of those moves.

Envoy was the losing bidder for the 2004 contract. The firm took the government to court, successfully arguing bureaucrats “turned a blind eye” to the rigging of the 2004 relocation contract to favour the winner Royal LePage Relocation Services (RLRS) — now Brookfield Global Relocation Services. The company has had a monopoly on the contract since 1999. The lawsuit revolved around the 2002 and 2004 contracts.

The government filed notice to appeal the court ruling, which awarded Envoy an unprecedented $40 million and delivered a major blow to the integrity of the government’s procurement system.

Justice Peter Annis delivered a withering decision on what he called the government’s “misconduct” in the bidding process and later during litigation. He called the government’s handling of the deal “reprehensible”, “outrageous” and “shocking. ” He also urged an investigation to determine how far knowledge about the misconduct went up the “governmental hierarchy.”

Annis awarded Envoy $30 million to cover lost profits, plus costs and interest, for two contracts — one for relocating the military and the other for moving RCMP and bureaucrats to new postings.

In a separate ruling on costs, he increased the award to cover Envoy’s lost profits and awarded full costs and interest totalling nearly $10 million to send a message about the court’s disapproval of government’s behaviour.

That government eventually abandoned any appeal and quietly settled the case with Envoy for $5 million less than the court’s award. The Public Accounts showed National Defence paid $28 million, the RCMP $4.2 million, and Treasury Board $2.8 million.

Envoy president Bruce Atyeo, who wouldn’t discuss the settlement, said he and his partner spent $12 million and more than a decade on the case, which wound through a series of tribunals, probes and hearings before landing in court.

“As condemning as that judgment was, nothing happened,” he said.

“I am dumbfounded that there has been no accountability … I don’t know what more the government needed to hear for there to be some punitive action here. People broke the law and yet everyone is walking around scot free and some of the people are still involved in the same jobs.”

The 2009 contract was supposed to fix the controversy and allegations of bid-rigging that surrounded the 2002 and 2004 contracts. But it also ended up mired in allegations of unfairness.

Atyeo appealed to the auditor-general to investigate the 2009 contract, which he argued ruled out all competitors other than RLRS. Auditor-General Michael Ferguson initiated a two-part investigation into the contract, which expires next month.

The AG’s office said it regularly examines procurement issues and the 2009 contract was flagged as an “area of higher risk and interest to Parliament and Canadians.”

The first part of the audit focused on whether key players — Public Works, Treasury Board Secretariat, National Defence and the RCMP — followed the contracting rules. That audit, released in Ferguson’s May report, found a series of missteps and delays during the 2009 contracting process that stopped suppliers — other than the incumbent — from bidding on the contract. It found, however, no evidence that it was done intentionally.

The second part, to be released Tuesday in Ferguson’s next report, will examine the delivery of relocation services, including whether the military and RCMP lived up to their responsibilities in managing the program. It also examined the extent they monitored the services provided to employees, as well as financial management and performance.

The military’s “final move” policy that landed Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie in hot water for claiming $72,000 in expenses to move within Ottawa was among the benefits offered by the military’s relocation policy. The Conservatives have since announced they will no longer pay this benefit for retiring military personnel who re-locate within a 40-kilometre radius because “a move down the road or within close vicinity is not defensible to taxpayers.”

Ferguson’s report will also include chapters on Canada’s response to international humanitarian crises, transnational crime, mental health services for veterans, financial support to the auto industry, preservation and access of government record, and the effectiveness of the Nutrition North Canada program to get healthy food to isolated communities.

kmay@ottawacitizen.com

By the numbers
$300 million: What government spends on relocation

$30 million: Annual administration fee to contractor

18,000- 20,000: Number of military and RCMP personnel and public servants annually relocated

$12 million: Envoy Relocation Services’ legal and other costs since 1999

$40 million: Court award for lost profits, costs and interest.

$35 million: Government settlement with Envoy.
 
Dec 2014 Update on HEA sytemic denial

TBS has produced a new "housing market analysis" for Bon Accord and the Edmonton CMA;

The report has many failings including "manipulating the date" to get their "findings";

The report is inconclusive, yet it concludes that Bon Accord is NOT a depressed market;

Our legal team has sent an analysis of the report to TBS relocation reconiseration committee;

We are awaiting the decision from TBS before revealing next steps.

If you are in the "HEA catch 22" and need help or just an ear, please call me over the holidays.

Merry Christmas everyone, thanks for all the support to date - we (Juanita, Maximilian, Mackenzie, Henry, Emma and Trillium) are greatful.

Marcus
(902) 466-4339
 
Welcome S.P. to the HEA club. Will call back tonight. Sorry to hear you got trapped in the HEA issue. Will do our best to asssit.
 
Here we go...if  you are posted in Edmonton, CBC reports that:

"In Calgary, home sales were down 24.6 per cent monthly. That mirrors a similar trend in Edmonton (down 26.4 per cent), Regina (down 12.3 per cent) and Saskatoon (down 12.2 per cent)." http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canadian-home-prices-rise-3-8-to-405-233-average-in-december-1.2901660

So what? Treasury Board Secretariat (TBS) still refuses to decide on Home Equity Assistance cases from 2010, and there is an ongoing Class Action on the same issue. I doubt that TBS can wait this one out as there may very well be a whole lot of unsatisified members/families this APS.

My recommendation: Start gathering evidence of a depressed market now (newpaper clippings as above, statistics, opinions) as you never know if you are going to be next to loose your shirt.  If you end up not needing them, no problem. If you do, building a case for a depressed market with your realtor is not something you can do effectively during your HHT or after relocating. If anyone requires assistance or has concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me. I will help where I can.



 
heavy reader said:
"In Calgary, home sales were down 24.6 per cent monthly. That mirrors a similar trend in Edmonton (down 26.4 per cent)...

That's number of houses sold compared to last year, rather than decline in money that changed hands in any given transaction, right?
 
Brasidas said:
That's number of houses sold compared to last year, rather than decline in money that changed hands in any given transaction, right?

I think you're right - those figures refer to volume, not prices.  There's a link to a map of home prices within the article, it shows Edmonton rising from $385,303 in November to $462,513 in December.  (Talk about a volatile market!)

However, the article mentions "The slump in oil prices is likely to trigger a housing downturn in commodity-driven markets, like Calgary and Edmonton — markets that were once expected to be among the strongest," wrote Diana Petramala of TD Economics in a research note.

If they start laying off oil patch workers, and they've already started - those prices are going to plummet just as fast as they rose, I would imagine.
 
Agreed. Also, housing market forecasts are about as good as used gitch. The intent of providing the article is to raise awareness for those folks who may be posted this APS to start doing their due dilligence in anticipation of a worst case scenario (as happened between 2007-2010 in Edmonton and surrounding communities).

Good catch - its all about interpretation!
 
This APS will be a slaughter in AB if oil and gas starts laying people off. I have some old school buddies that work up there and they're saying most of the exploration and services companies are either starting to lay off now or are warning all their employees that it's coming.

That's going to really impact house prices.
 
Absolutely. Probably the same with the troops in Cold Lake as well. Here's hoping nobody gets hit too hard, or the CMs see the light and decide to leave people out there for a year until things stabilize.
 
Might take more than a year, though.  Some experts are saying oil could be sub-$25/bbl by the start of summer.
 
Because of other projects still on the go that can't be stopped, it's actually estimated that housing prices will still go up another 2.9 percent this year in Edmonton.  Putting our own house up in 2 weeks so here's hoping we don't get affected.  On our street there's only one person doing anything related to the oil industry and that's my husband, so that's not a huge issue in our neighbourhood.
 
Occam said:
Might take more than a year, though.  Some experts are saying oil could be sub-$25/bbl by the start of summer.

When I applied for HEA, I had to gather all the stats myself. Luckily, the tycoons in Alberta have been posting their progress for major facilities and projects for some time. Have a look at this handy tool they made http://albertacanada.com/business/statistics/inventory-of-major-projects.aspx?projectStatus=7&region=&costMin=%245+Million&costMinValue=5&costMax=%2415000+Million&costMaxValue=15000&searchQuery=http%3A%2F%2Falbertacanada.com%3A80%2Fbusiness%2Fstatistics%2Finventory-of-major-projects.aspx%3Fform%3D3%26projectType%3D%26projectStatus%3D%26region%3D%26constituency%3D%26reirDivision%3D%26municipality%3D%26costMin%3D%245+Million%26costMinValue%3D5%26costMax%3D%2415000+Million%26costMaxValue%3D15000%26newProjects%3D%26sortBy%3D&pageUrl=http%3A%2F%2Falbertacanada.com%3A80%2Fbusiness%2Fstatistics%2Finventory-of-major-projects.aspx


As of today, there are $15 Billion worth of projects on hold in the Bon Accord area, I expect this to climb.  It will be interesting to see how this changes over time.

 
Reference: A. FCC case # http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2014/2014fc488/2014fc488.html
B. 'the Hill Times' (19 Jan 2015)

Congradulations to Ms d’Auray (former Secretary of the Treasury Board) on her new role as Canada’s ambassador to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development in Paris.



Your role in representing Canada in this important position is an impressive achivement in your career.

For those who are not aware, Ms. D'auray was the senior public servant responsible for denying the Home Equity Assistance file at TBS. It is sort of ironic to see how the accountability of such atrocious actions, getting caught in the Federal Court of Canada (ref A), had no impact on her career.

As for the HEA file, it has been almost 5 years without resolution, and 7 months since we won in Federal Court against the Treasury Board. We cannot even get a response from TBS on how long they will sit on this (likely after the election).

So...how come the good guys continue to get screwed and those who created, hid and failed to resolve the problem are promoted and rewarded?

I wish her the best in her new position and I hope that she can sleep at night knowing there are HUNDREDS of CAF families destroyed because of this maladministration. And I hope your RELOCATION to PARIS goes well.



 
Its the same all over.  Ever seen someone promoted and posted just to get them out of the job they are in and are screwing up?  Sucks but some times never change.
 
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