High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[CBH99]

A relatively recent example:

Man charged with murdering officer allegedly went on violent crime spree while out on bail

It appears no one was actively searching for Randall McKenzie before he allegedly killed an OPP officer — despite facing new charges while on bail, Susan Clairmont writes.

www.thespec.com

Colour me perhaps jaded, and most likely naive...

But it pisses me off when people oppose funding for law enforcement because they think the money could be better spent on 'mental illness & addiction.'

What I never hear is HOW??


How do we spend 'more money on mental illness'? Is mental illness a tangible person or thing we can spend money on?

What do they want that money to do exactly...hire more social workers to deal with mentally ill individuals more often in the hopes they don't go murder their bloody neighbours? Do they want it spent on supervised group homes for some folks? The building of dedicated mental health hospitals again?

How do we spend more money on mental illness? And what do we spend it on?



Same goes with addiction...

Currently, my understanding is that if you are addicted and have decided it's something you no longer want in your life, you go to a doctor who then refers you to the appropriate treatment plan (also known as Rehab)

Rehab facilities tend to be isolated and away from the common sources of drugs and alcohol, where individuals voluntarily enter a program designed to help them kick their addiction to a specific substance. (I'm unsure if there tends to be a wait list or not)

^ I could be entirely wrong about the above btw, I honestly have very little real experience with addictions


But my question remains...HOW is spending money on addictions' going to help anybody? How do we even do it?

Are they advocating that money is used to hire more staff? Open more rehabilitation centres? Fund certain medications? Enhance the training of already hired staff?

What the actual f**k is 'spend money on mental illness and addictions' supposed to look like...??


______________________


I DO KNOW that if your a criminal who preys on people, steals their cars, assaults them, etc etc the POLICE show up pretty damn quickly if the situation is requiring officers to be there 'right now' and they will make that criminal disappear (aka go away)

Now the COURTS on the other hand are all f**ked up...releasing an offender just because he happens to be native? Sorry, but fuck off with the reverse racism - especially when the individual is clearly a shitbag who poses a serious risk to society. If his own mother is saying "Screw it, he's yours..." that's a pretty solid sign the dude should have been locked up when the system had him. That, and his lifetime of being a scumbag...


________________________


We run a legal system in this country that is brutally expensive to run. I don't think the general public as a clue as to how expensive our legal system is to run...

Crown prosecutors & their assistants. Judges & their assistants. Clerks of the court. Courthouse admin staff. Armed security (usually a form of law enforcement) in the courthouses. The maintenance of the buildings themselves. The utility bills. The landscaping or public areas...

Then we have the correctional centres & the officers & staff that work there. Probation officers. Feeding the inmates. The utility bills. The maintenance of those facilities. The technology that goes into virtual courtroom attendance. Etc etc etc

Then we get to the actual police services, their members, vehicles, gas for vehicles, uniforms and equipment, specialized computers, specialized kit used in investigations, blah blah blah blah blah...


Our system is EXPENSIVE to run. Very expensive. And for the amount of taxpayer money that goes into it, it should be able to make basic decisions & deterninations that protect the public from certain ppl that clearly pose a threat...

Cut off your ankle monitor? Cool bro, hang out in a jail cell until your court matter gets sorted out, since you just told the system you can't be trusted to wear it. It doesn't matter if your native, or white, or black.

How frigging hard is that??



Mods, I apologize in advance, I know I dropped a few curse words in the above...

 

[childs56]

Colour me perhaps jaded, and most likely naive...

But it pisses me off when people oppose funding for law enforcement because they think the money could be better spent on 'mental illness & addiction.'

What I never hear is HOW??


How do we spend 'more money on mental illness'? Is mental illness a tangible person or thing we can spend money on?

What do they want that money to do exactly...hire more social workers to deal with mentally ill individuals more often in the hopes they don't go murder their bloody neighbours? Do they want it spent on supervised group homes for some folks? The building of dedicated mental health hospitals again?

How do we spend more money on mental illness? And what do we spend it on?

Open more facilities to assist people with mental illness, such as group homes, treatment centers. Here in Red Deer we have Mitchener Center which assists people living with disabilities issues functioning. It is has been scaling down for years and plans to shut it are on the books.

Same goes with addiction...

Currently, my understanding is that if you are addicted and have decided it's something you no longer want in your life, you go to a doctor who then refers you to the appropriate treatment plan (also known as Rehab)

It might take months or years to get placement in a treatment facility. Mean while your falling further and further.

Rehab facilities tend to be isolated and away from the common sources of drugs and alcohol, where individuals voluntarily enter a program designed to help them kick their addiction to a specific substance. (I'm unsure if there tends to be a wait list or not)

^ I could be entirely wrong about the above btw, I honestly have very little real experience with addictions

Alberta has put money and effort into increasing access to newly built Treatment Facilities, Provincial Jails have and are getting Addiction treatment programs. We have the first one in the province in Red Deer.

But my question remains...HOW is spending money on addictions' going to help anybody? How do we even do it?

Are they advocating that money is used to hire more staff? Open more rehabilitation centres? Fund certain medications? Enhance the training of already hired staff?

What the actual f**k is 'spend money on mental illness and addictions' supposed to look like...??

It is providing the service to help those get sober, then become product members of society. Instead of committing crimes to support their addictions.

______________________


I DO KNOW that if your a criminal who preys on people, steals their cars, assaults them, etc etc the POLICE show up pretty damn quickly if the situation is requiring officers to be there 'right now' and they will make that criminal disappear (aka go away)

Now the COURTS on the other hand are all f**ked up...releasing an offender just because he happens to be native? Sorry, but fuck off with the reverse racism - especially when the individual is clearly a shitbag who poses a serious risk to society. If his own mother is saying "Screw it, he's yours..." that's a pretty solid sign the dude should have been locked up when the system had him. That, and his lifetime of being a scumbag...


________________________


We run a legal system in this country that is brutally expensive to run. I don't think the general public as a clue as to how expensive our legal system is to run...

Crown prosecutors & their assistants. Judges & their assistants. Clerks of the court. Courthouse admin staff. Armed security (usually a form of law enforcement) in the courthouses. The maintenance of the buildings themselves. The utility bills. The landscaping or public areas...

Then we have the correctional centres & the officers & staff that work there. Probation officers. Feeding the inmates. The utility bills. The maintenance of those facilities. The technology that goes into virtual courtroom attendance. Etc etc etc

Then we get to the actual police services, their members, vehicles, gas for vehicles, uniforms and equipment, specialized computers, specialized kit used in investigations, blah blah blah blah blah...


Our system is EXPENSIVE to run. Very expensive. And for the amount of taxpayer money that goes into it, it should be able to make basic decisions & deterninations that protect the public from certain ppl that clearly pose a threat...

Cut off your ankle monitor? Cool bro, hang out in a jail cell until your court matter gets sorted out, since you just told the system you can't be trusted to wear it. It doesn't matter if your native, or white, or black.

How frigging hard is that??



Mods, I apologize in advance, I know I dropped a few curse words in the above...

The court system needs a overhaul. Unfortunately Trudeau and his members changed the bail process and program. They believe less offenders locked away waiting for trial in fact believe no one should be remanded.

 

[CBH99]

Open more facilities to assist people with mental illness, such as group homes, treatment centers. Here in Red Deer we have Mitchener Center which assists people living with disabilities issues functioning. It is has been scaling down for years and plans to shut it are on the books.

It might take months or years to get placement in a treatment facility. Mean while your falling further and further.

Alberta has put money and effort into increasing access to newly built Treatment Facilities, Provincial Jails have and are getting Addiction treatment programs. We have the first one in the province in Red Deer.

It is providing the service to help those get sober, then become product members of society. Instead of committing crimes to support their addictions.

The court system needs a overhaul. Unfortunately Trudeau and his members changed the bail process and program. They believe less offenders locked away waiting for trial in fact believe no one should be remanded.

I didn't realise you were in Red Deer. Howdy neighbour (Edmonton here)

- Unless there is a bigger & newer centre that is scheduled to be opened around the time Mitchener Centre is slated to close, closing it is a horrible idea. Keeping a place like that open actually is really important to the community at large, and it's annual operating costs are literally a rounding error in government coffers.

Closing it during a time when the city is growing quickly & our provincial population is growing quickly seems incredibly short sighted...


- If there is indeed a waiting period of months or years for someone who wants to get clean to get into rehab, then yikes! Absolutely fund more programs run out of more locations so those who are looking to get clean, can.

I feel like that's a good investment as a society, and really falls under healthcare spending anyways (in my wee little brain, anyway)

Agreed that offering programs that help people get clean, and those programs running at full tilt, does help prevent some crime from evening happening (mostly property crime, theft of items that can be resold for drug money, robberies, etc etc)



All of your points are good ones. If people with mental health issues are seeking help, but the help just doesn't exist - or exist in enough capacity that it can be easily accessed by the folks who need it - then I can see some validity to the proposition of using public funds for these things rather than more police.

But I need to stress the some part.

As we all know, real life doesn't always look like the academic discussions we have here or professionals have with each other. There is an ugly side to addictions and mental health challenges, and that ugly side can be extremely violent, unpredictable, and dangerous in so many ways.

We need police. Funding the programs and tools that may lead to a reduction in some crime is obviously good and needed, but I wouldn't argue that those funds should come at the expense of funding more police...I don't believe it's a 'one or the other' question/equation.


_______________________


Staying on topic in regards to the article about the murder of the OPP officer, I don't believe more social services funded would have prevented this guy from doing any of the things he did.

I guess that was the point of my rant above. More funding for those things would not have, in my opinion, changed this scenario...

He didn't steal cars, stab people, sexually assault people, and murder an officer who came to help push them out of a ditch because of an addiction or a mental health problem. He did those things because he's a piece of s**t who was smart enough to know where to buy an illegal gun & smart enough to make the money to buy it.

The courts let everybody down here... And why?? Because our woke moron of a dictator wants a slap on the wrist for most criminals, and therefore has a soft policy on bail? Because the SCC wants judges or JP's to 'make an extra consideration' before deciding whether or not to remand someone because they happen to be native?

(Personally I think the courts should view everybody as grey when deciding whether or not their acts deem them eligible for bail, especially for violent offenses. If their cultural background is somehow a factor, their lawyer can bring it up come trial time...but this guy not being remanded just because he was native is horses**t, in my opinion)

 

[mariomike]

But it pisses me off when people oppose funding for law enforcement because they think the money could be better spent on 'mental illness & addiction.'

Been reading about "Mental Health & Addictions Response Teams (MHART) in Ontario emergency services.

Different municipalities call them by different acronyms.

There has been an increase in them since the $27 million payout to the family of George Floyd by City of Minneapolis taxpayers.

The team responds to 9-1-1 calls in a Niagara Emergency Medical Services SUV with a team of paramedics and nurses.

Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) — Ottawa Community Partnerships For Health Equity

Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) Learn about the Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) . Since 2018, Niagara has implemented a mobile, integrated health team to respond to calls about mental health and substance use issues. The team respo

www.ocphe.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/mental-health-addictions-health-minister-1.6596702

Sylvia Jones unveiled Mental Health and Addictions Response Team (MHART) and vehicle
The MHART team was created in partnership between Essex-Windsor EMS and Hôtel-Dieu Grace Healthcare. Essex-Windsor EMS Chief Bruce Krauter said the team consists of two full-time paramedics and a social worker from Hôtel-Dieu Grace.

"Treat and Release", at the scene makes sense. Rather than paramedics transporting EDPs to an already over crowded ER.

 

[CBH99]

Been reading about "Mental Health & Addictions Response Teams (MHART) in Ontario emergency services.

Different municipalities call them by different acronyms.

There has been an increase in them since the $27 million payout to the family of George Floyd by City of Minneapolis taxpayers.

Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) — Ottawa Community Partnerships For Health Equity

Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) Learn about the Niagara Mental Health & Addictions Response Team (MHART) . Since 2018, Niagara has implemented a mobile, integrated health team to respond to calls about mental health and substance use issues. The team respo

www.ocphe.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/mental-health-addictions-health-minister-1.6596702

Sylvia Jones unveiled Mental Health and Addictions Response Team (MHART) and vehicle
The MHART team was created in partnership between Essex-Windsor EMS and Hôtel-Dieu Grace Healthcare. Essex-Windsor EMS Chief Bruce Krauter said the team consists of two full-time paramedics and a social worker from Hôtel-Dieu Grace.

"Treat and Release", at the scene makes sense. Rather than paramedics transporting EDPs to an already over crowded ER.

Agreed. We have a few different programs in place to try to address community needs & keep the vulnerable demographics out of the ER as much as possible.

The Community Paramedic Program has paramedics that operate outside of the 911 system using SUV's to fulfill their duties. They tend to have a list of places they will go to each week & ensure that that site/patient has everything they need before going onto the next one. (For example, they will have a retirement home they go to on Mondays, a lost of patients for Tuesday, etc)

(Their uniforms tend to be casual looking beige khaki pants with a dark navy blue golf shirt, not the reflective stripe/first responder style uni)

______________________


I think EPS was running a pilot project that had a specially trained social worker riding with an officer in certain areas of the city or for certain shifts. (I think Ontario is actually a wee bit ahead of us on this kind of thing, as I think the demand made itself known earlier via larger population)

Dangerous work for the social worker even with the police present, I imagine. And having the social worker present (who, in theory, has some rapport with their clients) probably helps things go smoother for the officers also

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not that familiar with the EMS-based response teams in Ontario other than to know they exist. The 'crisis response teams' that pair a police officer with a MH/social worker have different applications throughout the province. Depending on jurisdiction, they may or may not be a first-on-scene response, and are deployed during different hours, probably based on available resources and staffing.

In the broader discussion, I'm a proponent of 're-institutionalization'. Ontario shuttered the majority of its mental health hospitals in the 1990s and returned most of the residents to the communities. I'm not convinced the community supports were there in adequate numbers, and group homes, family supports, etc. are only effective if the person wants to participate.

I realize that Ontario's history of institutionalization isn't great and it was a too-handy go to for incorrigibility and relatively minor (today's standards) behavioral issues, but the justice and medical systems, as well as and society in general, need better tools to deal with that comparatively small but disruptive/dangerous segment that has no business being at large in the community and who reject voluntary controls on their freedom.

 

[childs56]

Who would have thought redneck behind the times Alberta would have been a leader in this type of program. jt should take a bit from the playbooks out here.

copied from the Public Service Web site
Grande Prairie Police and Crisis Team (PACT) provides a joint mental health/police team available for response to mental health crises; an integrated intervention model which ensures proper determination of care and referral. The team is called to assist in situations in the community where mental health and/or concurrent mental health and addictions issues contribute to the individual's crisis to decrease potential escalation of the situation and/or criminal charges.

PACT was first implemented by Alberta Health Services in the City of Grande Prairie, Alberta from May 2009 to June 2014. During 2011-2012, 1014 clients were seen (475 females and 539 males). Of these, 384 (39%) of the calls involved individuals deemed a danger to themselves, 307 (30%) of the calls involved individuals with various personality disorders, 305 (30%) of the calls involved drug and/or alcohol, and 444 (44%) of clients had previous contact with PACT.

 

[mariomike]

I'm not that familiar with the EMS-based response teams in Ontario other than to know they exist.

They use different acronyms across Ontario, and the U.S..

Resolve issues on the scene, rather than transport patients to a hospital.

Times have changed. We ( almost ) always transported 9 1 1 patients to ER.

Now, paramedics do Treat and Release at the Scene. Keeps 9 1 1 patients out of the ER.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1400999422323048448

 

[Jarnhamar]

Kelowna RCMP officer who assaulted student during wellness check won't serve jail time​

But at least they nailed her with a conditional discharge and some community service.

​

 

[Booter]

You don’t go to jail for assault in this country unless you have a long criminal history of assault. Not a call on whether that is right or wrong but it’s the way it is.

No criminal record/ guilty pleas and one assault charge- no jail time for anyone.

There was never any danger of jail in this charge- but I wonder if the charges could have contained something more substantial. But I’m no lawyer. I’m barely a cop

 

[Jarnhamar]

There was never any danger of jail in this charge-

Agreed, especially considering her traumatic childhood.

 

[brihard]

With the criminal proceedings now concluded they’ll be able to move forward with the internal conduct hearing. Good chance that will rise to a level that will cause it to be published and public.

 

[Jarnhamar]

With the criminal proceedings now concluded they’ll be able to move forward with the internal conduct hearing. Good chance that will rise to a level that will cause it to be published and public.

A First Nations woman who experienced poverty and physical, sexual and emotional abuse as a child, along with normalization of substance abuse and violence that was suffering from an accumulation of job stress and compassion fatigue? I can't imagine there is a lot of interest in pursuing anything.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Agreed, especially considering her traumatic childhood.

Understood, we all have suffered trauma growing up. Some worse than others. Hers did seem somewhat extreme.

Is this not the kind of thing that should come up on a psyc evaluation?

 

[mariomike]

The civil $uit was paid. For an undisclosed amount.

The RCMP confirmed that a settlement has been reached, but said no statement will be forthcoming, adding details of the settlement are covered under a confidentiality clause.

From 2021, two more civil lawsuits regarding the same officer,

Two more lawsuits have been filed against Browning. One incident occurred in 2016, while the other happened in 2019. Both of those cases are still before the courts.

‘Justice for Mona Wang’: Settlement reached in lawsuit over B.C. RCMP wellness check | Globalnews.ca

In a statement to Global News, Mona Wang said “the settlement was a compromise, which means no one got exactly what they wanted.”

globalnews.ca

The psychological aspect of applicant background checks in emergency services has been a topic of conversation for a long time.

 

[brihard]

A First Nations woman who experienced poverty and physical, sexual and emotional abuse as a child, along with normalization of substance abuse and violence that was suffering from an accumulation of job stress and compassion fatigue? I can't imagine there is a lot of interest in pursuing anything.

She will likely be facing a significant disciplinary hit. Not sure if she’ll face termination but I won’t be surprised if it’s on the table.

 

[mariomike]

She will likely be facing a significant disciplinary hit. Not sure if she’ll face termination but I won’t be surprised if it’s on the table.

Be interesting if they said how much they pay out in the civil lawsuits.

Yeah, I know. Confidential.

 

[Blackadder1916]

In another thread the problems with small town American policing was discussed. Attempting to consolidate (as much as possible) discussion about policing WTF moments, I'll put this new twist on the problem here.

America’s system of rural ****** PD is pretty badly flawed. Rife with nepotism, corruption, terrible pay, major OH&S issues… this kind of thing isn’t rare.

I can’t say specifically why it’s the case, but there are so many horror stories of these tiny munipal services having major issues. Money and independence seem to be two common factors. Policing is expensive; when municipalities that really can’t afford it nonetheless insist on their own services, you end up with departments staffed with very poorly paid officers (which speaks to both quality and, sometimes corruption), and who can’t afford to properly equip them or train them. Officers who are hurt often have inadequate disability insurance coverage for short or long term. This is also where departments have to ‘self fund’ and you see very sketchy and exploitive use of traffic tickets with arrest/bail powers, as well as civil forfeitures that lack much due process.

On the independence side, you end up with departments that are often prevented implicitly or explicitly from investigating local corruption, from law enforcement when certain businesses or families are concerned who are connected in town, or where the local police may themselves be corrupted. Local police can be used as weapons against municipal political rivals or in pursuing private feuds. The section of local police chiefs can be blatantly nepotistic in order to serve any of the above ends.

This is by no means to say that larger services don’t also have some similar problems, but ‘micro’ forces seem to be prone to lots of really terrible issues.

Welcome to ****** PD

Though not in the same league as Goodhue, Minn (with a population of 1,250 and formerly with a PD of 2 full-time and 3 part-time officers), Coffee City, Tx (population of 250 249 and 50 full-time and reserve police officers) also finds itself without a police force. Only this time it wasn't the department that quit, it was the City Council firing (suspending?) the entire PD.

Texas town with 50 cops for 250 people just disbanded its entire police force

Coffee City, a small Texas town famous for its speed trap, just disbanded its police force after an investigation found many cops had criminal pasts.

www.insider.com

 

[brihard]

In another thread the problems with small town American policing was discussed. Attempting to consolidate (as much as possible) discussion about policing WTF moments, I'll put this new twist on the problem here.




Welcome to ****** PD

Though not in the same league as Goodhue, Minn (with a population of 1,250 and formerly with a PD of 2 full-time and 3 part-time officers), Coffee City, Tx (population of 250 249 and 50 full-time and reserve police officers) also finds itself without a police force. Only this time it wasn't the department that quit, it was the City Council firing (suspending?) the entire PD.

Texas town with 50 cops for 250 people just disbanded its entire police force

Coffee City, a small Texas town famous for its speed trap, just disbanded its police force after an investigation found many cops had criminal pasts.

www.insider.com

What a mess.

 

[mariomike]

Not wtf. But, for readers with an interest in restraint + ketamine.

In today's court room news,

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/20/us/elijah-mcclain-death-trial/index.html

In 2021, the city settled a civil rights lawsuit with the family for $15 million,