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Here Kitty Kitty

George Wallace said:
I agree with your assessment.  However, one factor about the Mobility/Speed.  Although the Leo 1 was relatively lightly armoured compared to the others, modern metalurgy had indeed made stronger lighter metals.  Also, in its day, Speed was a form of Protection.  When the Leo 1 first came out, there were no Anti-Armour wpns that could track it accurately.  It wasn't until the late '80s and TOW 2 that the Leo 1 started to fall easy prey to Ants.  By then Leo 2 was starting to fill most inventories.
"Geschwindigkeit ist Sicherheit" "Speed is Safety".  I agree that the Leo's Speed was a form of protection.  By "Protection", I meant the old standard amount of metal protection, vice the holistic view.  Of course, it was also fairly well protected against other "stuff", such as the effects of nuclear weapons...
 
Heh... if you put enough metal & other goods on the Leo1 for protection.... you'll make a great pillbox.
 
geo said:
Heh... if you put enough metal & other goods on the Leo1 for protection.... you'll make a great pillbox.

Something The Germans also did with the Panther a lot in Italy and elsewhere. The Pantherturm.

pantherturm2_752.jpg
 
IIRC, other countries did the same with "vintage" German tanks after the war.
There is a thread around here somewhere that discusses how Romania (?) is presently auctioning off some vintage tanks to the highest bidder - now that they have been pulled out of their concrete emplacements on their border.
 
Danjanou said:
Something The Germans also did with the Panther a lot in Italy and elsewhere. The Pantherturm.

pantherturm2_752.jpg
Looks good for firepower and protection, but mobility seems to be lacking ;D
 
Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much eresearch into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.

Geo That was Bulgaria, they had a bunch of old Pnz IVs on their border with Turkey during the Cold War.

IIRC some sharp eyed Cdn blackhatter noticed something familiar about the Centurian Turret Pillboxes in Switzerland too. 8)
 
thanks guys for the replys
i stand corrected...good points
                                        regards,,
                                        scoty b..
p.s. good pics thanks..
 
Danjanou said:
Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much eresearch into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.

Geo That was Bulgaria, they had a bunch of old Pnz IVs on their border with Turkey during the Cold War.

IIRC some sharp eyed Cdn blackhatter noticed something familiar about the Centurian Turret Pillboxes in Switzerland too. 8)
A little off topic, but the Hitler and Gothic lines were broke through by VanDoos, correct?
 
Baker said:
A little off topic, but the Hitler and Gothic lines were broke through by VanDoos, correct?
The Hitler line was broken through by 1st Canadian Division and 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division along with the II Polish Corp. The Royal 22nd Regt was part of the 1st Canadian Division
 
Proud_Newfoundlander said:
Best German tank of ww2, easily. Combined, firepower, speed, mobility, and armour to a well balanced level. The only drawback is that it was made to well, which hampered mass production to larger levels

"Panther was rushed into production without proper trials, and numerous faults soon became apparent:indeed, in the type's early days more Panthers were lost to mechanical failure than to enemy action, and consequently the crew's confidence in the vehicle rapidly dwindled. The vehicle first saw action on the Eastern Front during July 1943 during the Kursk battles, and from then on it was used on all fronts. Once the mechanical problems had been overcome confidence in the tank soon built up again, and many consider the Panther to be the best all round German tank of World War II. In the immediate post-war period the French army used a number of Panther tanks until more modern tanks were available."http://www.wdif.net/german-weapons/panzerkampfwagen-v-panther-heavy-tank.html

One of the early results of this was the Panther catching fire, particularly in it's first appearance in the Kursk Battles[Operation Citidal]. This was a result of the German Army over looking some problems that had occurred in the two prototypes. This was done in the haste to have them in the field by May 1943( 850 produced between January and September 1943). Next was the possibility of German "blue on blue" as this was the first German tank to have the main gun barrel protruding over the front of the tank, therefore resembling Soviet tanks. In receiving the new tanks some losses were said to have occurred due to the crews not keeping the front of the tank towards the enemy, a training error.  Further, the main gun did not have a stabilizing system thus in most cases it had to come to a stop for an accurate shot over distance. While requiring minimal effort the traverse system was also slow compared to other tanks [15 sec for 360 rotation Sherman, 60 sec for 360 rotation early Panthers to 18 sec for later models]. There were also never solved problems with the steering design and the skid brake system.

Sources Various

Edit to add:

site advance search will provide more information on the Panther  ;D
 
dangerboy said:
The Hitler line was broken through by 1st Canadian Division and 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division along with the II Polish Corp. The Royal 22nd Regt was part of the 1st Canadian Division
Ah okay, thanks.

Baker
 
3rd Herd said:
........... Next was the possibility of German "blue on blue" as this was the first German tank to have the main gun barrel protruding over the front of the tank, therefore resembling Soviet tanks. In receiving the new tanks some losses were said to have occurred due to the crews not keeping the front of the tank towards the enemy, a training error. 

Most cases, in most armies, if a tank approaches you with its gun pointed at you, it is assumed to be hostile.  Where the front of the tank is is not relevant; where the gun is pointed is. 
 
George Wallace said:
Most cases, in most armies, if a tank approaches you with its gun pointed at you, it is assumed to be hostile.  Where the front of the tank is is not relevant; where the gun is pointed is. 

Actually George in this case [the Panther] exacerbated the condition which had become apparent in the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943 known as "tank fever".

As for the breaking of the lines:

PPCLI- 79 standing after the first attempt
LER-100  standing
(Source: J.L. Granatstein,  Canada's Army: Waging War and Keeping the Peace , however Granatstein cites Mark Zuehlke , The Liri Valley: Canada's World War II Breakthrough to Rome and his other books for further information on the "concreate Panthers"

 
Danjanou said:
Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much research into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.

A perspective on the German idea,

"As the tide of the war began to turn the German High Command became increasingly desperate and plans were formulated to use Panther tank turrets as improvised fortifications[Panzerstellung]. This was something of a departure for the Germans, since these tanks were still in production; indeed the Panther was the main medium German battle tank. Initially, the turrets used were from standard production models and, understandably, the Allies concluded from this that either 'the [Panther] chassis is not too satisfactory or that its production has been hindered by our air attacks'. Neither conclusion was in fact correct and, faced with overwhelming evidence, Allied intelligence was forced to concede that this was a standard German fortification.

Although the first installations captured by the Allies mounted standard Panther tank turrets (primarily from the older Ausf. D, but also the later Ausf. A turret) purpose built turrets were also encountered. These turrets were simplified versions of the standard production model, the main visible difference being that they were fitted with a flat hatch rather than a cupola. The other significant difference was that the turret roof was constructed using a 40 mm plate (as opposed to 16 mm). This was because the emplaced turrets were more vulnerable to artillery fire. Once the turret had opened fire it had effectively highlighted its location to enemy artillery and therefore needed to be able to withstand the inevitable barrage. German tests showed that the additional armour meant that the turret could withstand a hit from a 150 mm artillery shell.

Further evidence that these fortifications were not improvisations, but were specially developed, was apparent from the fact that they were mounted on purpose built shelters." ( Neil Short,  "The German use of tank turrets as fixed fortifications". http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content2.php/cid=215) Supporting Short is the directive given by Hitler of " TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces published in March 1945 found in CHAPTER V. FORTIFICATIONS AND DEFENSES, Section II. CHARACTERISTICS OF FORTIFICATIONS" stating "Hitler subsequently ordered Tobruk pits to be used as defense works in the field, and instructions for building them were distributed down to divisions." The Panther turrets were then placed on a modified "Torbruk pit". (http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch5sec2.html)


For the Panther's big Kitty brother.
There is a good site here http://www.ss501panzer.com/213_restoration.htm which looks at The Restoration of 213 commanded by SS-Obersturmführer Dollinger in Belguim.

For his surviving brothers and sisters:

Surviving Panther Tanks
the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panthers.pdf
(updated Feb/08 with photo's)

Relic hunting and restoration of armored vehicles in Russia:

"all founded armored vehicles  are property of GAPTU (Armored department of Russian Defense Ministry). Argumentation: "if tomorrow the war, all historical military armored vehicles will be at front..."  Strange? But during the battle for Moscow 1941 many people volunteer detachments had....the rifles 1812M from the Smolensk museum. Found on the battlefields after 60 years, any armored vehicles could be put in the order by our specialists."(http://www.tankmuseum.ru/restor.html)

BUNKERMUSEUM - Austrian defences against the former Yugoslavia
http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/C076/31/text.htm











 
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