Hazing thrives in organizations obsessed with conformity... - CBC Opinion

[Infanteer]

I'm not sure why - perhaps its blinders?  If some kid at school punches my kid in the face, its clearly bullying, in the form of assault.

 

[Haggis]

I'm not sure why - perhaps its blinders?  If some kid at school punches my kid in the face, its clearly bullying, in the form of assault.

Definitely assault.  Bullying may be harder to prove unless there is a pattern of actions (physical, psychological etc.) by an individual or group aimed at a specific individual.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

In Haggis' scenario, I am surprised nobody intimated that it would also constitute a service offence that should attract a charge.

I am less surprised, however, when I consider that in my career, most people I have observed (at least in the Navy) were always recalcitrant where the laying of charges was concerned and somehow always preferred to deal with arising situations by the use of administrative measures - vice disciplinary ones. In my mind, it would tend to minimize the "inappropriate" character of many types of acts I have witnessed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It is unfortunate the Duty NCO didn't go thru your Sector while this was happening, BTN.

That's probably the nugget right there.

'Single men (or women) in barracks don't grow into plaster saints', indeed. Having an NCO physically located in the accommodation during the evening hours to address crimes like this is critical IMHO. I assume that it's not always possible, however, due to manning issues.

BTN, good for you in coming forward and complaining. It takes alot of guts, and not everyone has them in that measure 

 

[Haggis]

In Haggis' scenario, I am surprised nobody intimated that it would also constitute a service offence that should attract a charge.

That discussion followed as the option of laying a charge under NDA 130 was brought out.

I am less surprised, however, when I consider that in my career, most people I have observed (at least in the Navy) were always recalcitrant where the laying of charges was concerned and somehow always preferred to deal with arising situations by the use of administrative measures - vice disciplinary ones. In my mind, it would tend to minimize the "inappropriate" character of many types of acts I have witnessed.

This has been my experience as well.  Many still believe that disciplinary measures (i.e. charges/convictions) are more damaging to a member's career than administrative actions when, in fact, the reverse is true.  One can always get a record suspension for a service offence conviction, but not for a Recorded Warning.

 

[Remius]

Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.

So, this is an exerpt from the link I provided a few posts up.

Bullying is an act of aggression by someone or a group with the intent of harming a person either physically or psychologically. Bullying may occur by hitting, threatening, intimidating, teasing and taunting, and name-calling, or by more subtle attacks such as spreading rumors or encouraging others to reject the person. Bullies target individuals whom they perceive are weaker or more vulnerable.

Assault is part of a bully's arsenal.  So yes it is assault.  The assault may have been part of a larger problem.  Just like domestic abuse.  It may include verbal and physical assault. Elder abuse is a real thing.  It does not always include physical violence but it can.

I don't think that anyone these days is minimising bullying or assault.  Quite the opposite.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Is it true that the building is based on a prison design? That's what I heard when I was incarcerated there in 1990 for 6 months of language training! LOL!

I'm convinced that the Mega is the source of everything wrong in CFLRS to this day. No wonder there is such a toxic culture there...

That rumour is still very much alive and thriving. I’ve never bothered trying to look into its accuracy, but it’s easy to believe, even if totally false. Its design is bizarre and the lack (or very minimal amount) of natural light accessing its corridors and many classrooms/offices, even when not in the basement, makes it even worse. (Especially blue sector.)

Your words are disheartening, because you aren’t the first one I’ve heard utter the same sentiment.

As was stated to me during one of many conversations outlining the issues with that place, it’s mostly just a tick in the box for many, or a ‘punishment posting’ for others. And although many know it needs fixing, if one is legitimately in a position to be able to make a difference, they won’t take the reigns and hunker down in seriously addressing the problems in case they end up having to be posted there longer to see it through.

 

[Remius]

That rumour is still very much alive and thriving. I’ve never bothered trying to look into its accuracy, but it’s easy to believe, even if totally false. Its design is bizarre and the lack (or very minimal amount) of natural light accessing its corridors and many classrooms/offices, even when not in the basement, makes it even worse. (Especially blue sector.)

Your words are disheartening, because you aren’t the first one I’ve heard utter the same sentiment.

As was stated to me during one of many conversations outlining the issues with that place, it’s mostly just a tick in the box for many, or a ‘punishment posting’ for others. And although many know it needs fixing, if one is legitimately in a position to be able to make a difference, they won’t take the reigns and hunker down in seriously addressing the problems in case they end up having to be posted there longer to see it through.

Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.  Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)

Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?

 

[TCM621]

Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.

Just to make it super clear:

Bullying is what you did to "your own Stan" when you told him you were offended by his presence when I presume you were his DS. Toxic leadership 101, notwithstanding that he carried on and finished. What kind of opening did you give to the other candidates on that course if/when they heard you say that? Think they might have thought it was fair game to go after "Stan" the same way you did?

I wasn't his DS, we were coursemates but i had a decade in at that point. I was being mean when I said that and the thought of a guy who gave up after 4 push ups going into battle with my brothers did offend me. The point was he worked and earned my, and everyone else's, respect despite his appearance, social skills, etc. He was never bullied by any of the other course mates because he worked hard and it was recognized.

 

[PuckChaser]

Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.  Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)

Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?

I can't speak to the Reservist portion, but in order to bring staff up to "standard", CFLRS runs its own instructor leadership type course. If the course was done properly, it should be enough to bring any PLQ MS/MCpl up to speed and make them competent instructors. The problem is how do you get your best and brightest to take a $600 a month pay cut, plus increased income taxes to go teach BMQ for 3 years? You're volunteering to be in a meat grinder. I'd absolutely love to go instruct on a BMQ, but I'd never do that to my wallet or my family. I would, however, take a CFTPO to go instruct on 1 course to fill gaps from the permanent staff.

 

[Haggis]

Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.  Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)

Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?

I was a member of the NCMPD CWOs Working Group from 2009 - 2013, the exact time frame when the CAFs addiction to Class B's was the only way to make up the staffing shortfalls forced on us by Afghanistan. The Working Group would visit CFLRS frequently to view the training and get feedback on  a variety of issues facing the CFLRS.

We saw no difference in the quality of instructors between Reg F and P Res (Class B).  Both had rockstars and thuds in their ranks.  In fact, at the Farnham Garrison, the OC, CSM and about half the instructors were Class B, but they were also all ex-Reg F.  Properly trained, led, mentored and managed, both Reg F and P Res members can excel.  And, as one other member of the Working Group used to say "there's no hat badge on a helmet".

 

[Remius]

Ok, that's good to hear.

I've worked in a few places where some class B types were beyond their best before date.  Myself included in one particular case. 

Thanks for the insight.

 

[ballz]

What's more important than it occurring (because young "A-type" personalities are always going to pull stunts like this) is what is done by the chain of command upon finding out?  What leadership does when they do see it happen should give us an idea of whether it thrives or not.  The incident in Winnipeg is an example - the chain of command is engaged and is cleaning house to address the problem they've identified.

This is a terrible example to support your point. It was a catastrophic failure that resulted in the loss of life. The Chain of Command did find out about it, they did nothing, they continued to do nothing, a soldier killed himself, they subsequently did nothing, and only after a BOI (mandatory because a soldier died during a training exercise) and a Brigadier-General having the buck land on his desk did *anything* happen.

This incident is yet another example of the CAF leadership not being competent enough to do anything to right the ship until a complete and utter catastrophic failure occurs which renders no other option. It is not a feather in the cap of leadership.The only thing done right here started at way to high of a level.

The only point to sustain is that the Div Comd wasn't afraid to say on national television "the senior leadership involved screwed the pooch on this one, we've had to fire them and now we've got to fix this." That's handling it well from a public affairs perspective, as the talking heads are usually assuring the public that our senior leadership is great, blaming the junior personnel and promising to provide them with better training so *they* don't make the same mistake again, never acknowledging the senior leadership failures. Example, the Tiger Williams / VIP flights debacle.

 

[Infanteer]

The only point to sustain is that the Div Comd wasn't afraid to say on national television "the senior leadership involved screwed the pooch on this one, we've had to fire them and now we've got to fix this."

I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....

 

[Lumber]

I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....

What incident are you guys talking about? I just finished reading the whole thread and I didn't notice a description of the initial incident.

 

[ballz]

What incident are you guys talking about? I just finished reading the whole thread and I didn't notice a description of the initial incident.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/military-suicide-minto-armoury-1.4946583

Discussed on our forums here https://army.ca/forums/threads/129558.0

 

[Lumber]

Is any "initiation" ritual considered "hazing"? We have a lot of initiation rituals in the Navy, but I wouldn't call them "hazing". Some are voluntary, some are not.

For example, "7 days at sea". When a sailor has been at sea for 7 straight days for the first time in their career, their wingers usually surprise them on watch with a pie to the face, or an raw eggs shampooing. Technically, you could call this textbook assault, but I've never heard anyone complain, and msot of the sailors I've seen come away smiling, I assume because the feeling of accomplishment (i.e. "I'm a real sailor now") and camaraderie.

The other more intensive initiation ritual, which is completely voluntary, is of course, our line crossing ceremonies. Is it hazing if it is voluntary, even though it might be unpleasant? (interesting tidbit from a ceremony I participated in: I love hot sauce, and I really like corn pops, a strawberry coulis is great, but eating the three together will make you want to hurl)

 

[PuckChaser]

If they aren't comfortable with the events, don't consent but are still forced to do things, or are treated differently if they choose not to participate it would still be hazing in my books.

In this day and age if the Navy still wants to do stuff like that, each member should be fully informed as to what each ritual is and consent to it in advance, as well as making sure that anyone not consenting isn't ostracized because they're not comfortable with doing whatever wierd stuff you guys come up with.

 

[Rifleman62]

For example, "7 days at sea". When a sailor has been at sea for 7 straight days for the first time in their career, their wingers usually surprise them on watch with a pie to the face, or an raw eggs shampooing.

How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.

 

[ballz]

I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....

I guess, if the context is to compare to the standard 20 years ago, then I can concede example makes sense as to show some improvement. But, I was 4 years old during the Somalia affair so from my perspective, that the buck didn't stop until a Brigadier-General's desk on this one shows that the bar for accountability still has a long ways to go, as that bar is not something I associate with / consider.

We can't expect Brigadier-Generals to know about this stuff going on within unit lines, and therefore be able to step in and prevent these types of environments from becoming poisonous. If the bar is set any higher than a unit CO's desk on these types of localized issues, then the bar isn't high enough. What I wonder is if those who were even closer to the problems, such as Pl Comds and SNCOs, actually felt that the environment was wrong but felt powerless to do anything about it because they wouldn't be backed by those who have the actual authority required (such as the sub-unit command team, and unit command team) to reinforce change to a positive direction.