Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[ueo]

I heard a story from a Para once about crowd control in the Holy Land. The biggest problem they faced was that the locals adhered to the rule of women and children first. Rifles, molotovs and grenades were in the rear ranks along with those that could see over the heads of the women and children.

Sniper. third man from left, rear rank, Fire.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Human shields. Israel will face its own PR disaster if it ends up killing its own citizens.

I would imagine those hostages are enduring a fate worse than being human shields. We know well what these fanatics will do with captured women and children.

 

[GR66]

One theory being put forward is that the objective of the attack was to derail Saudi Arabia signing on to the Abraham Accords:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/opinions/hamas-attacks-israel-palestine-diplomacy-bergen/index.html

 

[YZT580]

puts things in perspective doesn't it, with regards to the antics in Ottawa, all of them

 

[ueo]

Human shields. Israel will face its own PR disaster if it ends up killing its own citizens.

Second most favorite thing to do in the ME after rioting.

 

[Remius]

I would imagine those hostages are enduring a fate worse than being human shields. We know well what these fanatics will do with captured women and children.

Of course. And there is no reason to believe that won’t be concurrent. But the ultimate goal is to make this as complicated and as difficult as possible for Israel to respond.

Hamas is using unprecedented tactics and planning. They will also face unprecedented retaliation.

 

[markppcli]

PARA DS solution:

Why did you wait for the kid to stop before giving him the good news? Try harder next time.

Rifle above your head … up that hill and back down again 10 times. Carry on

And that kind of attitude towards civilian populations by the paras never had any negative repercussions ever, and certainly didn’t kick off a 20 plus year long counter insurgence fight inside the UK

 

[KevinB]

I heard a story from a Para once about crowd control in the Holy Land. The biggest problem they faced was that the locals adhered to the rule of women and children first. Rifles, molotovs and grenades were in the rear ranks along with those that could see over the heads of the women and children.

FWIW this is why magnified optics became a thing. This was one of the top aspects from the Delta AAR in Somalia than lead to the S&B 1-4x Short Dot optic (and from there 1-6, 1-8, and 1-10x LPVO’s being adopted).
PID in terms of being able to both effectively discriminate and engage targets in a complex situations.

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710984136821715004

getting worse, the retaliation will have to be brutal

Known Israeli Dead were over 1k yesterday.
Over 100 abducted as well.
The Israeli government isn’t being as forthcoming about the scope of the issues as perhaps they could.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And that kind of attitude towards civilian populations by the paras never had any negative repercussions ever, and certainly didn’t kick off a 20 plus year long counter insurgence fight inside the UK

We didn't start it

 

[McG]

The part I don't get is the abductions. This is a PR disaster for Hamas...

Stealing women and children after you kill the men is something out of the Viking age and will only bring indiscriminate retaliation.

Again, unrestrained retaliation may be the goal. The whole massacre may have been just to incite Israel to go full Russia in Grozny, or Assad in Ghouta. or Russia in Bucha, or ...

Hamas does not care about causing the slaughter of Palestinians. And they probably believe they can use it to better international PR effect than Israel can leverage the slaughter that was already unleashed on its own citizens.

 

[dapaterson]

Taking captives has been a tool in the past to conduct swaps; last number I saw was north of 5000 Palestinians detained by the IDF.

 

[KevinB]

And that kind of attitude towards civilian populations by the paras never had any negative repercussions ever, and certainly didn’t kick off a 20 plus year long counter insurgence fight inside the UK

That’s a fairly simple and incorrect statement though Mark.

Legit targets are legit targets. The CAF Legal system never did a good job on understanding what ‘Self Defense’ was and did an awful job trying to teach it.

Overreactions however, become actual crimes and do need to be punished.

COIN and Peace Enforcement aren’t great jobs for young/inexperienced soldiers. There needs to be split second decision making conduct that have ramifications beyond the local situation.

Soldiers in these situations needs to understand not just the LOAC, but also potentially the local laws and their RoE and training need to reflect that. As well articulation of their actions in a post UOF situation. Like LE shootings they need to be viewed and described from the ‘moment in time’ without the inclusion of hindsight.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Again, unrestrained retaliation may be the goal. The whole massacre may have been just to incite Israel to go full Russia in Grozny, or Assad in Ghouta. or Russia in Bucha, or ...

Hamas does not care about causing the slaughter of Palestinians. And they probably believe they can use it to better international PR effect than Israel can leverage the slaughter that was already unleashed on its own citizens.

Perhaps it's time we stop trying to take the high road and start turning regions into glass.

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps it's time we stop trying to take the high road and start turning regions into glass.

I’m hoping every Western Nation observed the folks in their countries cheering for Hamas.
I’d be deporting those back ASAP.

Then start targeted killing of the leadership of nations that support Hamas and their military infrastructure.

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps it's time we stop trying to take the high road and start turning regions into glass.

The fourth Geneva Convention enters the conversation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’m hoping every Western Nation observed the folks in their countries cheering for Hamas.
I’d be deporting those back ASAP.

Then start targeted killing of the leadership of nations that support Hamas and their military infrastructure.

It disgusts me the way these people have behaved after yesterday.

I agree with you

 

[Eaglelord17]

The part I don't get is the abductions. This is a PR disaster for Hamas...

Stealing women and children after you kill the men is something out of the Viking age and will only bring indiscriminate retaliation.

There is some pretty disturbing twitter threads... and videos out there... I won't share them here.

It depends on what you consider PR. For them this is a PR win. The Arab world hates Israel and never has cared much for the ‘rules for armed conflict’.

The UN has made it clear no matter how many crimes Israel commits they aren’t going to sanction them or hold them accountable. So for Hamas they need to look elsewhere. They aren’t trying to win over the West, the West has nothing for them.

Abductions make sense for swaps, shields, etc. at the end of the day playing ‘fair’ is a luxury afforded to those winning. When you are a group like Hamas which is severely limited in resources, technology, and training, fighting Israel one of the best equipped and trained military in the world, if you try to play fair it only gets you killed quick.

 

[KevinB]

The fourth Geneva Convention enters the conversation.

This is why I don’t favor a mass conventional response https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf

 

[Halifax Tar]

The fourth Geneva Convention enters the conversation.

The protection of the Geneva convention shouldn't extend to forces and organizations that don't follow it to begin with.