Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Kilted]

I'd be surprised if they don't already have Special Forces inside Gaza doing exactly this.

I was thinking on a larger scale.

 

[Kirkhill]

Too open ended. Did they recently use that rifle against you? If so should be a POW and treated like all POWs regardless of age.

A child... It's not hard.

We complicate things by adding "what-ifs" all the time, but the cold hard reality is there is no special reason women and children can't be combatants, but when they aren't actively engaging in combat they are given special consideration. None of this is new or hard...

It is indeed open ended. Intentionally.

It isn't about your personal interaction with that child. It is about the universe of possibilities that that child represents, both good and bad. Nobody knows what that child may do tomorrow or a decade from now. Which leads to Ukraine as well as the words ascribed to Abbot Arnaud Amalric at Beziers in 1209 - "Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19).

To be clear. I am not counselling slaughter. Just pointing out how difficult making a humanitarian gesture, such as permitting women and children can be in practice. How about a nice, well dressed young Palestinian that speaks well and went to Oxford? What was he doing yesterday?

It is hard.

 

[gryphonv]

It is indeed open ended. Intentionally.

It isn't about your personal interaction with that child. It is about the universe of possibilities that that child represents, both good and bad. Nobody knows what that child may do tomorrow or a decade from now. Which leads to Ukraine as well as the words ascribed to Abbot Arnaud Amalric at Beziers in 1209 - "Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19).

To be clear. I am not counselling slaughter. Just pointing out how difficult making a humanitarian gesture, such as permitting women and children can be in practice. How about a nice, well dressed young Palestinian that speaks well and went to Oxford? What was he doing yesterday?

It is hard.

War is messy.

I've never been in combat myself, but I do know judging is infinitely easier from the outside looking in.

 

[Quirky]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710796849408360697

Hamas:

 

[childs56]

One of the first stories an older Blackwatch MWO told me when I was just a recruit, that the most dangerous person he met was a kid in Africa with an AK. Something about cold dead eyes.

During workups for Bosnia one scenario was having a m72 pointed at our carrier by a smaller statue person. Yelling to stop put the weapon down did not work. So I shot.
AAR was it was a kid holding a empty tube. I should not have shot as it was a innocent kid. My response was, We had 7 soldiers in a carrier, had what was seen as a weapon that would of killed us pointed at us. They were given multiple warnings to stop, drop the weapon. They failed to do so and continued to point it towards us. So I enacted my right to self defense of myself and crew.
The evaluators argued and said it was just a kid, I said kids kill soldiers all the time. I don't plan on going home in a box because it was kid.

They enemy will use all their resources to kill, separate and use public opinion against us to win their war. We need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all conventional costs to preserve our way of life.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My concern would be the thirteen year old with a rifle.

Child?

Target, more like.

 

[gryphonv]

During workups for Bosnia one scenario was having a m72 pointed at our carrier by a smaller statue person. Yelling to stop put the weapon down did not work. So I shot.
AAR was it was a kid holding a empty tube. I should not have shot as it was a innocent kid. My response was, We had 7 soldiers in a carrier, had what was seen as a weapon that would of killed us pointed at us. They were given multiple warnings to stop, drop the weapon. They failed to do so and continued to point it towards us. So I enacted my right to self defense of myself and crew.
The evaluators argued and said it was just a kid, I said kids kill soldiers all the time. I don't plan on going home in a box because it was kid.

They enemy will use all their resources to kill, separate and use public opinion against us to win their war. We need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all conventional costs to preserve our way of life.

In that scenario I'd rather be put In jail after the fact than go to a funeral for mates I could of saved. 100% of the time.

 

[Quirky]

In that scenario I'd rather be put In jail after the fact than go to a funeral for mates I could of saved. 100% of the time.

What’s that quote…Better be trialed by 6 than carried by 8?

 

[TacticalTea]

What’s that quote…Better be trialed by 6 than carried by 8?

Judged by 12 than carried by 6.

(mind you, could be both if you get the death sentence!)

 

[daftandbarmy]

During workups for Bosnia one scenario was having a m72 pointed at our carrier by a smaller statue person. Yelling to stop put the weapon down did not work. So I shot.
AAR was it was a kid holding a empty tube. I should not have shot as it was a innocent kid. My response was, We had 7 soldiers in a carrier, had what was seen as a weapon that would of killed us pointed at us. They were given multiple warnings to stop, drop the weapon. They failed to do so and continued to point it towards us. So I enacted my right to self defense of myself and crew.
The evaluators argued and said it was just a kid, I said kids kill soldiers all the time. I don't plan on going home in a box because it was kid.

They enemy will use all their resources to kill, separate and use public opinion against us to win their war. We need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all conventional costs to preserve our way of life.

FWIW, you were 100% right, and it seems clear that your ’evaluators’ had never seen a shot fired in anger.

My guess is there will be alot of dead ‘fighting age males’, anyone holding a weapon regardless of age, in the Gaza streets over the next week or so.

I‘m also guessing that the Israelis will round up all males in Gaza and intern them, at some point, after they’ve smashed the resistance. Another million or so refugees should be hitting the streets soon after.

This pacification program will take about a year, more or less, probably, and will be accompanied by a wide range of retaliatory actions against Iran and other non state actors, like Hezbollah.

 

[ModlrMike]

Wab Kinew on Israel​

twitter.com/WabKin...

The responses are the best entertainment I've had in a long time.

 

[medicineman]

During workups for Bosnia one scenario was having a m72 pointed at our carrier by a smaller statue person. Yelling to stop put the weapon down did not work. So I shot.
AAR was it was a kid holding a empty tube. I should not have shot as it was a innocent kid. My response was, We had 7 soldiers in a carrier, had what was seen as a weapon that would of killed us pointed at us. They were given multiple warnings to stop, drop the weapon. They failed to do so and continued to point it towards us. So I enacted my right to self defense of myself and crew.
The evaluators argued and said it was just a kid, I said kids kill soldiers all the time. I don't plan on going home in a box because it was kid.

They enemy will use all their resources to kill, separate and use public opinion against us to win their war. We need to be prepared to defend ourselves at all conventional costs to preserve our way of life.

Very similar to my ROE TEWT for "The Bungle In The Jungle" in '96 - I was actually supposed to facilitate this class, however apparently it wasn't appropriate for a Cpl with out of wire experience to lead officers through an ROE exercise so instead a Sgt with no out of wire experience lead instead.
Anyhew, the little story starts with a kid stealing something from an LSVW, you as the armed sentry respond - turns out to be a C7 that's been taken and it has a magazine attached...up til this point we're chasing, yelling challenges, the usual "Stop or I'll shout Stop YET AGAIN". Comes to point where the kid stops, turns and now the weapon is pointed at you, what do you do? Alot of murmuring/discussion within the teams...everyone avoids the obvious, they come to my group (where there was an AJAG lawyer who told me if I shot him he wouldn't think charges would be warranted). The Sgt asks my group "What's your response?" "I just have a question - you say the kid stops and turns around...do they slowly stop and slowly turn or do they just whip around?" Sgt goes "You're chasing the kid, they suddenly stop and turn around - WHAT DO YOU DO?". Without batting an eyelid, "I'd drop them where they stood". You'd think I just taken and eviscerated everyone's collective first borns in front of them from the screeches. The Sgt's chin hit the podium and then got out "Well, that is certainly an option, but not the DS solution"...which was to hope and pray that the weapon wasn't made ready and try to de-escalate.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Very similar to my ROE TEWT for "The Bungle In The Jungle" in '96 - I was actually supposed to facilitate this class, however apparently it wasn't appropriate for a Cpl with out of wire experience to lead officers through an ROE exercise so instead a Sgt with no out of wire experience lead instead.
Anyhew, the little story starts with a kid stealing something from an LSVW, you as the armed sentry respond - turns out to be a C7 that's been taken and it has a magazine attached...up til this point we're chasing, yelling challenges, the usual "Stop or I'll shout Stop YET AGAIN". Comes to point where the kid stops, turns and now the weapon is pointed at you, what do you do? Alot of murmuring/discussion within the teams...everyone avoids the obvious, they come to my group (where there was an AJAG lawyer who told me if I shot him he wouldn't think charges would be warranted). The Sgt asks my group "What's your response?" "I just have a question - you say the kid stops and turns around...do they slowly stop and slowly turn or do they just whip around?" Sgt goes "You're chasing the kid, they suddenly stop and turn around - WHAT DO YOU DO?". Without batting an eyelid, "I'd drop them where they stood". You'd think I just taken and eviscerated everyone's collective first borns in front of them from the screeches. The Sgt's chin hit the podium and then got out "Well, that is certainly an option, but not the DS solution"...which was to hope and pray that the weapon wasn't made ready and try to de-escalate.

PARA DS solution:

Why did you wait for the kid to stop before giving him the good news? Try harder next time.

Rifle above your head … up that hill and back down again 10 times. Carry on

 

[Brad Sallows]

It's possible they may have opted to let the attack happen in order to gain an insurmountable casus belli. To end the Gaza problem once and for all. After all, the Azeris managed to do it in NK, didn't they? And no one said a thing.

Much like some have theorized about Pearl Harbor. Except it'd be somewhat more credible in this case given Israel's proximity and technological superiority relative to its enemy, and the lesser damage inflicted than during Pearl Harbor.

Unlikely. If anyone friendly to Israel had any notion of what was pending, Israel would have been warned; it would only be a matter of time before the facts of the warning emerged, at which point every Israeli official in a position to have known about the warning would be politically and socially dead. The sole and obvious explanation is that Hamas achieved surprise.

 

[Kirkhill]

PARA DS solution:

Why did you wait for the kid to stop before giving him the good news? Try harder next time.

Rifle above your head … up that hill and back down again 10 times. Carry on

I heard a story from a Para once about crowd control in the Holy Land. The biggest problem they faced was that the locals adhered to the rule of women and children first. Rifles, molotovs and grenades were in the rear ranks along with those that could see over the heads of the women and children.

 

[GR66]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710784783381393515

1200 Israeli casualties - civ and mil. Amongst which, 200+ confirmed killed at this time.

Comparable to 9/11 at this point.

Hamas attack: 250+ and counting Israeli dead out of a population of 9,369,000
9/11: 2977 dead out of a 2001 US population of 285,000,000

Proportionally then (if my Sunday morning brain is working properly) the death toll as a percentage of the country's population is 2.5 times that of the 9/11 attacks on the US.

 

[suffolkowner]

Hamas attack: 250+ and counting Israeli dead out of a population of 9,369,000
9/11: 2977 dead out of a 2001 US population of 285,000,000

Proportionally then (if my Sunday morning brain is working properly) the death toll as a percentage of the country's population is 2.5 times that of the 9/11 attacks on the US.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710984136821715004

getting worse, the retaliation will have to be brutal

 

[GR66]

From the CNN Live Updates:

Israeli security cabinet officially declares state of war following Hamas attacks​

From CNN's Amir Tal and Lauren Iszo

Israel’s security cabinet has officially declared a state of war, according to the government press office Sunday.
The war “was forced on the State of Israel in a murderous terrorist assault from the Gaza Strip” on Saturday, the government statement said.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed the country will "take mighty vengeance" for the attack by Palestinian militants.
The war declaration was taken in accordance with Article 40 of Israel’s Basic Law, the press office said. Israel does not have a written constitution, but its 13 Basic Laws serve a similar function.
The top Israeli Defense Forces official in charge of activities in the Palestinian territories said after the attacks that Hamas has "opened the gates of hell." Israel has been pounding Gaza with airstrikes, which have killed more than 300 people.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The part I don't get is the abductions. This is a PR disaster for Hamas...

Stealing women and children after you kill the men is something out of the Viking age and will only bring indiscriminate retaliation.

There is some pretty disturbing twitter threads... and videos out there... I won't share them here.

 

[Remius]

The part I don't get is the abductions. This is a PR disaster for Hamas...

Stealing women and children after you kill the men is something out of the Viking age and will only bring indiscriminate retaliation.

There is some pretty disturbing twitter threads... and videos out there... I won't share them here.

Human shields. Israel will face its own PR disaster if it ends up killing its own citizens.