Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Good2Golf]

I agree that someone needs to address this recent refugee and ethnic cleansing crisis in Gaza... And last time I checked, it wasn't Egypt that ordered millions of Gazans to leave the north of Gaza and head south...

No, it’s that Egypt is not letting fellow Muslims across the border in their hour of need…

Edit to add: and Egypt is reinforcing the same blockade of Gaza by sea as Israel. Is this not arguably worse, coming from a Muslim nation?

So, Israel (not Egypt) is responsible for creating this crisis and should take in the refugees it created (it could build temporary towns for them.. Etc until it fulfills its military objectives).

Actually, as brihard pointed out, that was actually Hamas that broke the EXISTING ceasefire on 7 Oct…

 

[Remius]

Once again, you're just falling for the IDF lying propaganda (finding a couple of AK-47 behind an MRI machine )

Laugh it up. But the evidence that Hamas uses and has used that tactic is confirmed and common. In fact they have perfected it. You are choosing to ignore the sources of information that confirms it.

Joking aside, and staying on topic, can you please provide non-IDF sources to support your claim that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Pick any reputable human rights organization.

Why would I trust a human rights group over a legit military source. NATO has made that assessment and I trust that more than activist groups. You don’t get to define the source that you find acceptable to the argument as being the only source that is acceptable. You are using confirmation bias to make your point.

Here's Israel's own Human Rights group (B'Tselem) detailing the IDF's long history of using Palestinians as human shields:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

That is an independent NGO funded mostly by foreign money. And they tend to lump terrorists as civilian casualties.

So now that we can remove that NGO source we can go off what NATO has shown, HAMAS is using tactics that leads to higher civilian casualties but not beyond the normal ratio of urban combat civilian casualties in the Middle East. If HAMAS was not making civilian targets into legit targets the casualty rates for civilians would be much lower.

 

[jackamela]

Your Cathy Newman mind tricks won't work on me fella.

You asked how could Egypt possibly be exempt from being ordered to take on people. I gave you an example.


You seem to want this discussion to go in a certain direction, so yes they were. If other Europeans don't want to import criminals rapists and murderers from other countries (among their behaved counterparts) then they should say no, too.

You are misreading me entirely (though the Cathy Newman mind tricks line did give me a chuckle).

I think Poland made the correct call. To be honest, I cannot see why any country would want or should be compelled to have Palestinians within its borders.

And that includes Israel.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You are misreading me entirely (though the Cathy Newman mind tricks line did give me a chuckle).

I think Poland made the correct call. To be honest, I cannot see why any country would want or should be compelled to have Palestinians within its borders.

And that includes Israel.

In that case I humbly apologize. A good reminder not to jump to conclusions.

To give a counter argument to my point, which is a rabbit hole full of PC mines, but Poland seems to love Ukrainian refugees. 2 or 3 million in 2022 alone? Poland seems to think certain demographics are more productive and behave better than others.

Given Palestinians history in Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, and so no, I wouldn't be surprised if countries don't want to take them in. It's unfortunate too because it looking very grim for them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In that case I humbly apologize. A good reminder not to jump to conclusions.

To give a counter argument to my point, which is a rabbit hole full of PC mines, but Poland seems to love Ukrainian refugees. 2 or 3 million in 2022 alone? Poland seems to think certain demographics are more productive and behave better than others.

Given Palestinians history in Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, and so no, I wouldn't be surprised if countries don't want to take them in. It's unfortunate too because it looking very grim for them.

Also, alot of Palestinians don't want to leave Gaza, and for pretty good reasons...

Why Palestinians fear that if they leave northern Gaza they may never be able to return​

Many worry that Israel’s response to Hamas’ terrorist attack will result in Palestinians’ being permanently expelled from Gaza, stirring painful memories of the “Nakba.”

Why Palestinians fear that if they leave northern Gaza they may never be able to return

Many worry that Israel’s response to Hamas’ terrorist attack will result in Palestinians’ being permanently expelled from Gaza, stirring painful memories of the “Nakba.”

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

Also, alot of Palestinians don't want to leave Gaza, and for pretty good reasons...

100%.

If they leave for another country and Israel doesn't let them back in, problem solved for Israel.

 

[GR66]

To be blunt, Gaza simply isn't viable as part of a Palestinian state. It's physically separated from the West Bank and isn't big enough to support itself economically. I have no clue what the solution might be, but frankly finding a resolution to the Israel-Palestine conflict would be much easier if it didn't exist.

 

[brihard]

To be blunt, Gaza simply isn't viable as part of a Palestinian state. It's physically separated from the West Bank and isn't big enough to support itself economically. I have no clue what the solution might be, but frankly finding a resolution to the Israel-Palestine conflict would be much easier if it didn't exist.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Pick any reputable human rights organization.

Are there any? They'd have to be manifestly apolitical, for starters.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I agree that someone needs to address this recent refugee and ethnic cleansing crisis in Gaza... And last time I checked, it wasn't Egypt that ordered millions of Gazans to leave the north of Gaza and head south... And then bombed schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, homes... Etc (which is now creating a logistical problem for Israel as it tries to evacuate people in Rafah but the North and middle of Gaza is now uninhabitable!), it was Israel who did all that.

So, Israel (not Egypt) is responsible for creating this crisis and should take in the refugees it created (it could build temporary towns for them.. Etc until it fulfills its military objectives). In fact, it would be partially fulfilling the UN's resolution (# 194) of the Palestinians' Right of Rrturn since 70% of Gazans are not really from Gaza but are Palestinians (and their descendants) who were ethnically cleansed from towns and villages inside the current state of Israel (my family included).

Very few of the Gazans are from the events of 1948, as are very few Israeli's and in a decade or so, there will be no one left from those times on either side. The painful reality is that Israel gave up Gaza in the hopes of peace and got 15,000 rockets and Oct 7th in exchange for that, along with other attacks. Hamas could have distanced itself from the Muslim Brotherehood and built better ties with Egypt. But they did not, because the government in Egypt is considered as much of an enemy as the Israelis are. Hamas has never shied away from stating that it's end goal is the destruction of Israel and that means killing the majority of Jews there, anything else they say are just steps to that end goal.

 

[jackamela]

To be blunt, Gaza simply isn't viable as part of a Palestinian state. It's physically separated from the West Bank and isn't big enough to support itself economically. I have no clue what the solution might be, but frankly finding a resolution to the Israel-Palestine conflict would be much easier if it didn't exist.

Well, the original settlement of the Palestinian mandate divided the entire territory in two: the new, reduced state of Israel for the Jews and the larger state of Jordan for the Arab Muslims.

So, really, the home of all the 'Palestinans' (they were never labelled as such prior to the creation of the label in the 1960's) is Jordan.

That was the original settlement and - given the repeated actions of the Palestinans over the last 80 years they have (by the political and military logic of every other conflict) forfeit any claim to be in Israel.

That is the reality of it viewed with the emotion taken out of the situation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

100%.

If they leave for another country and Israel doesn't let them back in, problem solved for Israel.

There are about half a million Palestinians in Lebanon, but Israel isn't much safer as a result. True safety relies on good diplomacy and a political solution, of course, but that's pretty far from reality right now...

Palestinians in Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jackamela]

There are about half a million Palestinians in Lebanon, but Israel isn't much safer as a result. True safety relies on good diplomacy and a political solution, of course, but that's pretty far from reality right now...

Palestinians in Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They do say a problem shared is a problem halved..

But, yes, you are right - ultimately there must be a political solution.

What that is, who knows.....

 

[daftandbarmy]

They do say a problem shared is a problem halved..

But, yes, you are right - ultimately there must be a political solution.

What that is, who knows.....

Northern Ireland elected convicted terrorists to Parliament, for example, which seems to have calmed things down a bit.

For example:

Gerry Adams - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Brad Sallows]

There is no getting away from the political mission statement clauses that did or do mention ethnically cleansing Jews, or what has happened to Jews in the countries in the region outside Israel. It's obvious that almost all other countries in the area don't want Jews; many exhibit behaviour that suggests they don't want anyone except Muslims. Israel can't risk becoming only marginally Jewish, or geographically indefensible. All the political solutions containing any part of either of those are DOA. People agitating for those solutions reasonably should know this; everyone else reasonably should know that the agitators reasonably know this.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The fact that Saudi Arabia, and most Gulf kingdoms, take little or no Muslim refugees should make other nations question why not.

 

[KevinB]

The fact that Saudi Arabia, and most Gulf kingdoms, take little or no Muslim refugees should make other nations question why not.

Because none of them want destabilizing influences...

 

[Kirkhill]

Very few of the Gazans are from the events of 1948, as are very few Israeli's and in a decade or so, there will be no one left from those times on either side. The painful reality is that Israel gave up Gaza in the hopes of peace and got 15,000 rockets and Oct 7th in exchange for that, along with other attacks. Hamas could have distanced itself from the Muslim Brotherehood and built better ties with Egypt. But they did not, because the government in Egypt is considered as much of an enemy as the Israelis are. Hamas has never shied away from stating that it's end goal is the destruction of Israel and that means killing the majority of Jews there, anything else they say are just steps to that end goal.

Very few Scots were at Culloden, much less Bannockburn. That doesn't prevent them from making up stories.

As to Gaza not being viable...

Land area of Gaza Strip - 365 km2
Land area of Monaco - 2 km2

GDP of Gaza (2022 CIA) - 19 BUSD
GDP of Monaco (2022 CIA) - 9 BUSD

 

[rmc_wannabe]

There are about half a million Palestinians in Lebanon, but Israel isn't much safer as a result. True safety relies on good diplomacy and a political solution, of course, but that's pretty far from reality right now...

Palestinians in Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And the Lebanese hate the fact they're there.

Most attribute the start of the 1982 Lebanese Civil War to the influx of Palestinians and PLO supported Shias that upset the delicate tripartite situation betwen Shias, Sunnis, and Christians.

Egypt is much the same, in that they have made peace with Israel and it's been good for business. Having seen the Rafah border crossing in contrast to the one at Taba/Eliat... I can tell who the Egyptians feel more comfortable having come across the border.

 

[ueo]

I don't think Egypt would want to - but Europe is certainly told that it must accept millions of refugees. Canada is told that it must accept ultimately maybe hundreds of thousands of refugees.

So by that logic, why would Egypt be exempt?

Furthermore, I'm also slightly baffled by an international community that says Gazans are suffering famine & genocide - but which puts no pressure at all on Egypt to allow refugees in. The UN is very clear that, say, Germany and France must accept millions of refugees - but the UN does not feel Egypt should accept Palestinian refugees.

I don't have a dog in the hunt - but there are some jarring logical gaps there.

"...must accept..." cite the authority for this please. Dont know of any world body that would try.