• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

I have no dog in this fight.  I don't think the issue is Kilo's posts.  I think the issue is, is that Kilo just continually "pooh poohs" all opposing posts by accusing people of "cherry picking" or saying they are not from valid sources. 

Case in point:
Kilo_302 said:
Well that's the risk people run when they use flawed data from laughable sources and are well, just plain wrong.

If you want to debate, then debate.  But saying "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't debating.

Just my  :2c: 

 
PMedMoe said:
I have no dog in this fight.  I don't think the issue is Kilo's posts.  I think the issue is, is that Kilo just continually "pooh poohs" all opposing posts by accusing people of "cherry picking" or saying they are not from valid sources. 

Case in point:
If you want to debate, then debate.  But saying "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't debating.

Just my  :2c:

Exactly what I was getting at, thanks.
 
OldTanker said:
And I concur with jpjohnson. I get the sense that if you don't agree with the pack, the pack chases you away. Frankly, I see lots of merit in Kilo's posts.

Wrong. I respond to  person's tone in their posts, as was pointed out to me. I have no dog in this fight either and would far prefer to ignore this thread.

Kilo_302 said:
Well that's the risk people run when they use flawed data from laughable sources and are well, just plain wrong. No sense in trying to draw water from a stone however. Walking away. I would add that I have received a few PMs from members who were more than glad to see someone successfully argue for the truth.

Another discussion heroically halted by another kind of "consensus" huh?

Cheers.

Kilo, martyr yourself all you want, or act like a dick all you want. There are many getting tired of your attitude, that's what I came in here about. You want to walk away, fine, that's your decision. Much of this here is "how" you say something, nothing to do with which group you belong to. But keep beating that drum all you like, I'll listen less and less.

 
If anyone has been offended by my tone I sincerely apologize. However when I have in the past taken issue with others' tones toward me I have been told I have "thin skin." It seems you can't win if you disagree. For the record from here on in I will try to be more civil. But I will others to the same standard.
 
Kilo_302 said:
If anyone has been offended by my tone I sincerely apologize. However when I have in the past taken issue with others' tones toward me I have been told I have "thin skin." It seems you can't win if you disagree. For the record from here on in I will try to be more civil. But I will others to the same standard.

I am speaking about you and your posts right now. Please do not deflect.

If you have issues with something someone posts then report it, like everyone else is encouraged to.

Now, if you want to get back to discussing the topic at hand. Nicely.
 
PMedMoe said:
I have no dog in this fight.  I don't think the issue is Kilo's posts.  I think the issue is, is that Kilo just continually "pooh poohs" all opposing posts by accusing people of "cherry picking" or saying they are not from valid sources. 

Case in point:
If you want to debate, then debate.  But saying "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't debating.

Just my  :2c: 



I disagree. While I could have worded it more appropriately, this discussion IS about sources. I would point out that my sources are all either primary academic sources or articles that reference primary sources. The "opposing side's" sources are not nearly as valid. If we cannot discuss sources then the discussion cannot happen.
 
Kilo_302 said:
If we cannot discuss sources then the discussion cannot happen.

But I thought the science was settled. Hardly a valid starting point for a discussion.
 
Kilo_302 said:
I disagree. While I could have worded it more appropriately, this discussion IS about sources. I would point out that my sources are all either primary academic sources or articles that reference primary sources. The "opposing side's" sources are not nearly as valid. If we cannot discuss sources then the discussion cannot happen.

Is there a point in having a discussion with you if you dismiss the validity of sources you disagree with right off the bat?  True scientific debate is humble before humanity's ignorance.  Not arrogant and it is the arrogance of the climate alarmists that causes many thoughtful people to question the assertions put forth.  In relation to this your earlier post where you state that the correlation of human activity to climate change is proven, I'd just point out that you make the layman's mistake of equating correlation to causation. While the correlation may be significant enough to warrant investigation, no one has of yet provided scientific evidence of causation.
 
An excellent source, which apparently is important.

http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs/Climate%20change/Climate%20model%20results/over%20estimate.pdf

117 predictions - three were sort of accurate and the other 114 overestimated the amount of warming. On average, the predictions forecasted two times more global warming than actually occurred.

The predictions are made by climate models and the consensus believes they are valid models.

Models say global warming is rapidly warming the planet's atmosphere.
Data says the planet's atmosphere is barely warming at all.
Gradually belief in the faux reality of computer models gets replaced by actual reality.

Just takes time.
 
Another really good source, the IPCC!  The voice of the consensus, the best source for the best scientific projections.

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/ipcc-ar5draft-fig-1-4.gif

Blink graph . . .  It builds a nice picture.  Even includes the ex post facto "adjustments" made to earlier predictions.



 
Judith Curry (2013) comments on the leaks of the IPCC AR5 to "friendly" journalists.  She observes they have increased their certainty levels while admitting they can't explain what they were so wrong in their predictions.

Go figure.  The science is not settled as we have heard so many times as the reason to make public policies to regulate CO2 as a pollutant.

http://judithcurry.com/2013/09/15/leaked-ipcc-report-discussed-in-the-msm/#more-12988.


What they say: ‘The rate of warming since 1951 [has been] 0.12C per decade.’

What this means: In their last hugely influential report in 2007, the IPCC claimed the world was warming at 0.2C per decade. Here they admit there has been a massive cut in the speed of global warming – although it’s buried in a section on the recent warming ‘pause’. The true figure, it now turns out, is not only just over half what they thought – it’s below their lowest previous estimate.


What they say: ‘Surface temperature reconstructions show multi-decadal intervals during the Medieval Climate Anomaly  (950-1250) that were in some regions as warm as in the late 20th Century.’

What this means: As recently as October 2012, in an earlier draft of this report, the IPCC was adamant that the world is warmer than at any time for at least 1,300 years. Their new inclusion  of the ‘Medieval Warm Period’ – long before the Industrial Revolution and  its associated fossil fuel burning – is a concession that its earlier statement  is highly questionable.


What they say: ‘Models do not generally reproduce the observed reduction in surface warming trend over the last 10 – 15 years.’

What this means: The ‘models’ are computer forecasts, which the IPCC admits failed to ‘see... a reduction in the warming trend’. In fact, there has been no statistically significant warming at all for almost 17 years – as first reported by this newspaper last October, when the Met Office tried to deny this ‘pause’ existed.In its 2012 draft, the IPCC didn’t mention it either. Now it not only accepts it is  real, it admits that its climate models  totally failed to predict it.


What they say: ‘There is medium confidence that this difference between models and observations is to a substantial degree caused by unpredictable climate variability, with possible contributions from inadequacies in the solar, volcanic, and aerosol forcings used by the models and, in some models, from too strong a response to increasing greenhouse-gas forcing.’

What this means: The IPCC knows the pause is  real, but has no idea what is causing it. It could be natural climate variability, the sun, volcanoes – and crucially, that the computers have been allowed to give too much weight to the effect carbon dioxide emissions (greenhouse gases) have on temperature change.


What they say: ‘Climate models now include more cloud and aerosol processes, but there remains low confidence in the representation and quantification of these processes in models.’

What this means: Its models don’t accurately forecast the impact of fundamental aspects of the atmosphere – clouds, smoke and dust.

What they say: ‘Most models simulate a small decreasing trend in Antarctic sea ice extent, in contrast  to the small increasing trend in observations... There is low confidence in the scientific understanding of the small observed increase in Antarctic sea ice extent.’

What this means: The models said Antarctic ice would decrease. It’s actually increased, and the IPCC doesn’t know why.


What they say: ‘ECS is likely in the range 1.5C to 4.5C... The lower limit of the assessed likely range is thus less than the 2C in the [2007 report], reflecting the evidence from new studies.’

What this means: ECS – ‘equilibrium climate sensitivity’ – is an estimate of how much the world will warm every time carbon dioxide levels double. A high value means we’re heading for disaster. Many recent studies say that previous IPCC claims, derived from the computer models, have been way too high. It looks as if they’re starting to take notice, and so are scaling down their estimate for the first time.


 
I did say that, but I was thinking more along these lines:

ModlrMike said:
Consensus only means general agreement. One can just as easily be wrong as right.
 
The cost of  CO2 hobgoblins and green genies . . . .   

“(Reuters) – Germany’s transition to renewable energy may cost up to 1 trillion euros ($1.34 trillion) in the next two decades, the environment minister said on Wednesday, piling pressure on his opponents to back plans to cap power price rises before the election.

With an eye on the September vote, Peter Altmaier, one of conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel’s most trusted ministers, has outlined plans to rein in subsidies for renewable power which have pushed up consumers’ electricity bills.

However, his plans may be doomed as the opposition Social Democrats (SPD) and Greens have reservations and could block legislation in the Bundesrat upper house.

“The costs of our energy reform and restructuring of energy provision could amount to around 1 trillion euros by the end of the 2030s,” Altmaier told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.”



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/20/us-germany-energy-idUSBRE91J0AV20130220
 
I've found a new term that describes me well; "Climate Change Agnostic".

Like anyone else, there are things I’m qualified to speak on with some authority, but most things are outside my field of expertise. One thing I’m certainly not qualified to judge is whether the Earth is gradually getting warmer, and if it is, whether mankind is responsible. I just don’t have the educational tools and breadth of experience to make an informed judgment there, and the overwhelming majority of humanity is going to be in the same boat. Call us the climate change agnostics — our minds are open, but we’re not sold yet.  ... Matt Gurney, National Post

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/16/matt-gurney-climate-scientists-it-wont-matter-if-youre-right-in-the-end-if-no-one-believes-you/

Matt makes good points and doesn't even go so far as to say that while the upcoming IPCC report acknowledges a significant step back from its projected data, their conclusions remain as alarmist as ever without explaining why that is so considering the new data.

I'll add one further point: Until they make their rationale clear, we shouldn't spend one nickel on numerous esoteric concepts such as carbon credits.
 
Again and again, face the facts people. There is serious global climate disruptions and environmental damages. End story. All this blither and blather about "we once thought the earth was flat.."

Guess what? Allan Savory brought that one up in one of his presentations. Lets do a paradigm shift here. How about all you people in denial that there is nothing wrong with MANs impact on the earth are the ones that have "the world is flat" mindset. Its you people that will hopefully wake up one day and see things for what they are.

I have stated these things before and I will re-emphasize them here again (my beliefs)
-People choose to believe what they want to (not what really is in front of them)
-We, mankind, must first acknowledge the problem (its really one problem at a whole, MANs negative impact on the earth)
-We do not need to PANIC and over react or make knee jerk reactions. We need very well thought out solutions that will work for a sustainable future and these solutions can be implemented in a short, medium and long term basis
-There is corporate and other interest in NOT changing things for the better (As an example how long did Tobacco companies ignore or deny that cigarettes were damaging to people's health? I am sure there are loads of Petrol, Industrial agriculture, manufacturing, large scale fishing that do not want to change)

Deny our impact? Hurt your grandchildren and their children.


 
Back
Top