• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

That, sort of, was my point. We have different military standards because we are different societies.


Ummmmm no. Adultery/ethics knows no rank.


Seems like it was black and white to me. The Cpl shut down the dinner.

They have a UCMJ, we have a NDA. And the CAF JAG is pretty good at suggesting charges, when they are warranted.
I do agree the JAG is great at what they do. CoC don't always listen or don't forward the paperwork for advice. I don't have percentages and every branch is different so I have one viewpoint.

I agree all ranks can be victim to a lack of ethics, with life circumstance added into the mix. The outcome of the unethical decision will impair your ability to remain relevent the longer you have been in uniform. Some decisions will end every career, while others will have a greater affect on a more mature member than it will on a newer member.

As for the last CDS, there is nothing saying that an investigation wasn't already done, and with the evidence at hand a decision was made. Now they could look at it again with a different lens.

If one was completed in 2012 or 2014 etc. And a different decision is made, I wouldn't want to be the one that cleared everything earlier. They will either be a victim of politics or a victim of their own poor decision.
 
I'm not sure under what authority the Cpl had to close the entire event because of an individual bringing in offsite alcohol..

I could be wrong but this sounds like a PRes mess. Reg Force messes' have Mess Managers, in my experience and/or memory.

Assuming it is a PRes unit...I've been V-PMC, PMC of Messes' during my PRes time. The PMC certainly didn't outrank the CO in those cases.
 
I could be wrong but this sounds like a PRes mess. Reg Force messes' have Mess Managers, in my experience and/or memory.

Assuming it is a PRes unit...I've been V-PMC, PMC of Messes' during my PRes time. The PMC certainly didn't outrank the CO in those cases.
I believe according to the story the CO mentioned was the CO of a different unit then the mess belonged to. This would mean that he wouldn't have the same authority, or really any authority over that particular mess. I'm wondering if this was at a multi-unit armoury such as Fort York or Moss Park. Perhaps there is more of a history here.
 
I'm not sure under what authority the Cpl had to close the entire event because of an individual bringing in offsite alcohol... I've worked those mess dinners as the Bartender, and been in mess dinners when folks brought in alcohol. It's poured out, and if the individual is a jerk about pouring it out they're told to leave. Party carries on unless a series of incidents start happening and then you find the nearest responsible CSM/SSM and let them know you'll have to close the bar if people carry on. Problem is normally solved 99% of the time at that point.
I agree.

As presented it sounds like a case of "I have power and I want to use/abuse it" to me. Particularly if the Cpl was overheard by their peers stating they wanted to shut things down because of the mess at the end.

To be blunt, the story sounds like a case of a Cpl overreaching their authority, and not liking it when they get called on it. Deal with the individuals, and carry on with the event.
 
It appears the CFNIS may not be starting entirely from square one ...
The Department of National Defence says military police opened an investigation in 2015 into Gen. Jonathan Vance's conduct while he was serving in Italy the previous year, but that no charges were laid.

The Defence Department says the investigation was launched before Vance's appointment as defence chief in July 2015, but did not reveal the specific allegations that were investigated.

"An allegation against Gen. Vance was investigated by the military police in 2015 for conduct while serving as Deputy Commander, Allied Joint Force Command Naples, a position he held from 2013 until July 2014," the department said in an unattributed statement.

"The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service investigation did not meet the elements of the offence to lay charges under the Code of Service Discipline or the Criminal Code of Canada." ...
 
It would appear his shenanigans were identified before he became CDS. Looks like he had the same vetting team as the GG. 🙄
Which does beg a serious discussion...... is the military so run by either fear, career bag licking of such an order that you sell your soul out, and/or pension above all else?? That's sure how it looks to outsiders right now.

I mean NO ONE stood up and said "Wait a darn minute here"?
 
Which does beg a serious discussion...... is the military so run by either fear, career bag licking of such an order that you sell your soul out, and/or pension above all else?? That's sure how it looks to outsiders right now.

I mean NO ONE stood up and said "Wait a darn minute here"?

There's a book about that.... I saw Dixon speak once. He has one arm 'earned largely through my own incompetence'. I recall that, during his talk, he focused on the part I've bolded below:


On the Psychology of Military Incompetence​

On The Psychology of Military Incompetence is a work by Norman F. Dixon,[1] first published in 1976,[2] which applies insights from psychology to military history. After case studies of military and naval disasters from the preceding 120 years, mostly British, it offers in readable, not technical, style an analysis of the personality of the unsuccessful leader. Its conclusions are equally applicable to other less deadly forms of human organisation.

Starting from the premise that success or failure in military and naval operations may in large part be due to the personality of the general or admiral in command, the author first examines various historical disasters and the role of the commander in the resulting loss of life or liberty for the victims (which often included civilians as well).

Among major British case studies, he cites the blunders in the Crimean War by Raglan, followed by the blunders of Buller in the Second Boer War. In the First World War, he looks at the casualty list of Haig on the Western Front and the ineptitude of Townshend in Mesopotamia. Between the wars he castigates Britain for its failure to modernise its forces, which led to years of disaster on land, sea and (less so) in the air. During the Second World War, he covers Percival's failure to defend Singapore and Montgomery's over-bold effort to seize Arnhem (though he sees this as a tragic blot on an otherwise laudable career).

After this catalogue of incompetence, he addresses how such large and costly enterprises as armed forces can be put in the hands of men of such dubious calibre. Here he discerns a vicious circle: it is people of a certain type who are recruited and promoted, so others either do not apply or languish in insignificant positions. Among characteristics of the British officer class in the period under examination are: a narrow social segment admitted, scorn of intellectual and artistic endeavour, subservience to tradition, and emphasis on virility.

This leads, in his view, to the prevalence of an authoritarian type, fawning to superiors and often harsh or uncaring to inferiors. Such a man, by this analysis, is afraid of women (so only half human) and afraid of failure. He therefore ignores people and facts which do not conform to his world view, learns little from experience and clings to external rules, applying them even when the situation demands other approaches (for example Haig sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men he ordered to walk through mud into German machine gun fire). He may not be stupid, though some of the generals studied undoubtedly were, and he may be physically courageous, but his fatal lack is moral courage. Men like Townshend and Percival, caught in a trap by a more enterprising enemy, sat zombie-like until disaster overwhelmed them.

As a corrective, the author also mentions unequivocally great military and naval commanders like Napoleon, Wellington and Nelson who were far from this personality type.

 
Which does beg a serious discussion...... is the military so run by either fear, career bag licking of such an order that you sell your soul out, and/or pension above all else?? That's sure how it looks to outsiders right now.

I mean NO ONE stood up and said "Wait a darn minute here"?
Maybe it's different in the officer world, but down here as a lowly NCM we don't get a say in who gets promoted to be our boss. Complaints/concerns went to CFNIS, CFNIS did an investigation and no charges were laid...

Why would the PMO listen to other CAF members worries, when their chosen man was not charged by the professionals?
 
Maybe it's different in the officer world, but down here as a lowly NCM we don't get a say in who gets promoted to be our boss. Complaints/concerns went to CFNIS, CFNIS did an investigation and no charges were laid...

Why would the PMO listen to other CAF members worries, when their chosen man was not charged by the professionals?

Us officers didn't either.

:D
 
Which does beg a serious discussion...... is the military so run by either fear, career bag licking of such an order that you sell your soul out, and/or pension above all else?? That's sure how it looks to outsiders right now.

I mean NO ONE stood up and said "Wait a darn minute here"?
Not so fast Bruce. It was a concern, it was raised, discussed, and investigated. The findings from the 2015 investigation were such that it did not meet the threshold for charges being laid. The Ombudsman, in 2018, because of constraints within his own mandate, would not furnish further info to PCO. So perhaps legislation is the problem, not any scrotum sucking as you imply.
 
So it takes charges at that level to halt a career?.....if only that was evenly applied to all.

Excuses, excuses....sorry but this makes that picture of the old white men discussing "diversity" make perfect sense now.

Don't ask, don't tell....
 
Or maybe I'm just crabby.....but darn it, when will the foot shooting stop??
 
Or maybe I'm just crabby.....but darn it, when will the foot shooting stop??
Sometimes we shit the bed and then face the scorn of our roommates.. And then when we ask for Depends, the system says that they are not covered.

And then you from two blocks over, find out we shit the bed 5 years ago, in your neighborhood, and demand an inquisition.
 
Last edited:
Have to wonder how many did, and felt the consequences, based on what appears to be some less-than-comprehensive follow-up.
Go back and check the CANFORGENS for crash retirements of GO/FOs and flag officers who were regarded as still having some legs prior to the CDS appointment. :p
 
Back
Top