GBAD - The return of 'FOBS'

[Kirkhill]

Which became the USAF…

Because the Army wasn’t a good place to put the Air Force.
And yes, that split has ended up causing other issues.

Perhaps the Air Force, like the Navy, should have had its own Army - like Goering's Fallschirmjaeger.

After all the Army has its own Air Force and Navy. Hell, even the Navy's Army has its own Navy and Air Force.

 

[FJAG]

When I did my Napkin Military I made different element commands with some overlap, but mostly separate, and had sub sections cut for specific tasks.

Air Force was split into Transport and Air Dominance.

I created a whole new Element of Tactical Aviation for Rotary wing, Ground Support Aviation and UAS. Mainly as from what is seen in Canada and down here the ‘true’ Air Force always seem to be Fighter focused - and other tasks that aren’t as “sexy” tend to get ignored.

The split between the Army and Air Force (and Navy too) down here after the implementation of National Security Agreement of 1947 (unification under one Department of Defense) was so bad that the subsequent 1947 Key West Agreement wasn’t even adhered to until the Korean War, and further refining was required in 1952, 1954 and 1966.


It wasn’t just funding issues - but roles that were claimed to justify those funding requirements were being abused (or abandoned). Stop me if you’ve seen this before

10 TAG enters the chat.

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps the Air Force, like the Navy, should have had its own Army - like Goering's Fallschirmjaeger.

After all the Army has its own Air Force and Navy. Hell, even the Navy's Army has its own Navy and Air Force.

Well since the NSA of 1947 the USMC isn’t under the Dept of the Navy (there being no separate Departments now as all under DoD even thought there remains a Secretary of the Navy) It is its own separate entity legally although still considered part of the Naval Service.

But you do bring up the issue of the fact that parent services aren’t likely to support things they don’t see a direct need for, and will support duplicate efforts if they think they need something (the whole Space Force debacle being a prime example of this behavior).

Helicopters, specifically armed helicopters in the late 50’s and early 60’s was another battleground. With the Air Force claiming the role, but not implementing anything. But the whole Army Chinook program was fought by the Air Force as well back then.

 

[GR66]

APKWS/CRV-7 application.

US Army gets new 70mm laser rocket counter-drone systems

The US Army has received six MSI's Electronic Advanced Ground Launcher Systems (EAGLS) to enhance its counter-drone capabilities.

interestingengineering.com

View attachment 87610

Some videos on Defence Blog showing the Ukrainians using their VAMPIRE system to down Russian UAVs. Looks to be a good tool in the shed for taking out the type of recce quad-copters shown being taken out in the video and something that can be domestically produced.

Not sure how effective they are against low-and-fast FPVs or loitering munitions though. I imagine those types of targets are much more difficult to gain and maintain a laser lock, which highlights (again) that there is no single solution to the growing AD problem and multiple systems will be required to take out different types of threats.

[edited to fix article link]

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Going by what we are seeing in the videos coming out of Ukraine. Pretty much every 2nd truck in a convoy is going to need an air guard with a ring mounted belt fed LMG for local defense against the FPV attacks. The fancier SHORAD stuff can attack the reconnaissance drones. LMG's combined with EW equipment is likley the most economical way to protect a convoy.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Going by what we are seeing in the videos coming out of Ukraine. Pretty much every 2nd truck in a convoy is going to need an air guard with a ring mounted belt fed LMG for local defense against the FPV attacks. The fancier SHORAD stuff can attack the reconnaissance drones. LMG's combined with EW equipment is likley the most economical way to protect a convoy.

Every truck on the Brit convoys I did in Afghanistan had a GPMG on a ring mount...except maybe the Pinz that the FAC/JTAC rolled in.

Or 40mm on WIMIKs or Jackels.

No reason for any serious log organization not to do the same. I know if we had to stop in an urban area, or even small village with a T-junction, I'd want someone watching my back. Doubly so if things could cruise in from the sky.

 

[FJAG]

Every truck on the Brit convoys I did in Afghanistan had a GPMG on a ring mount...except maybe the Pinz that the FAC/JTAC rolled in.

Or 40mm on WIMIKs or Jackels.

No reason for any serious log organization not to do the same. I know if we had to stop in an urban area, or even small village with a T-junction, I'd want someone watching my back. Doubly so if things could cruise in from the sky.

Interesting observation. Back in the cold war days our deuce gun tractors didn't have roof hatches, but we rolled back the first part of the tarp and had detachment members standing with C2s as air sentry lookouts. That of course does not work for a logistics convoy where there is no one in the cargo compartment to man any weapon. Take that to the next step for the proponents of autonomous follow-the-leader logistics vehicles which are totally unmanned and undefended.

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting observation. Back in the cold war days our deuce gun tractors didn't have roof hatches, but we rolled back the first part of the tarp and had detachment members standing with C2s as air sentry lookouts. That of course does not work for a logistics convoy where there is no one in the cargo compartment to man any weapon. Take that to the next step for the proponents of autonomous follow-the-leader logistics vehicles which are totally unmanned and undefended.

Manned TAPVs with C-UAS mixed through the packet with autonomous "trailers" playng follow the leader.

 

[Kirkhill]

Lasers aren't ready for prime time?

U.S. Military Laser Weapon Programs Are Facing A Reality Check

The quiet end of a laser for fighter jets speaks to continued challenges in fielding operationally-relevant battlefield laser weapons.

www.twz.com

So a new M-SHORAD

Counter-Drone Stryker Armored Vehicle Armed With Lasers, Rockets, Guns Unveiled

The new Stryker aims to offer the Army another layer of highly mobile lower-tier air defense capability to help rebuff drone attacks.

www.twz.com

Laser included but...

Backups include 70mm APKWS, 30mm XM914 and 7.62mm M240B.
Admittedly the APKWS is laser guided but that only needs to be a low power laser (doesn't it?) Or does a higher power laser extend the accurate range of the APKWS?

 

[AmmoTech90]

It's late and I'm tired, but I have to think that autonomous, unarmed vehicles are perfect targets for suicide bombers (yesterday's war), tethered drones/ground vehicles (today's war), and probably whatever will come next (guy with a laser/LED dazzler or air rifle messing with the follow sensor?)

Do you use lethal force on someone using non lethal force on a piece of equipment? It's not weapon or crypto, hopefully the follow vehicle fails safe and just stops so there's no risk to human life. Kid runs up to throw a bag over the sensor. Convoy stops and unbags sensor. 30 seconds later it happens again. We don't shot kids with garbage bags do we?

It's a tricky question.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2024/10/14/army-moving-towards-counter-uxs-capabilities-interoperability

One of the things that makes countering drones and other unmanned land or sea-based systems difficult is the threat is “not limited to conflict,” Brig. Gen. Patrick Costello, commanding general of the 94th Army Air and Missile Defense Command, said at the panel discussion.

“This is a peacetime threat and a conflict-based threat,” he said. “You don't have to be in war to have a UAS problem, and that shapes a lot of the ways that we look at this.”

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/drones-military-pentagon-defense-331871f4?st=GUkcZS

For several nights, military personnel had reported a mysterious breach of restricted airspace over a stretch of land that has one of the largest concentrations of national-security facilities in the U.S. The show usually starts 45 minutes to an hour after sunset, another senior leader told Kelly.

Federal law prohibits the military from shooting down drones near military bases in the U.S. unless they pose an imminent threat. Aerial snooping doesn’t qualify, though some lawmakers hope to give the military greater leeway.

.....

Again - GBAD at civil and military airfields as well as other VPs is a thing - even during peacetime.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile, proximity rounds for the LAVs and Apaches. Eventually. Radar for the LAVs?

With new bullets, the Army wants to turn Apaches and Bradleys into drone killers

With a new bullet designed to explode near its target, Apache attack helicopters may soon be a key defender against drone threats.

taskandpurpose.com

the Army is testing a 25mm round for Bradley Fighting Vehicles and a 30mm round for Apache helicopters that use proximity sensors to detect and destroy drones, said Army Lt. Col. Saleem Khan, product manager for medium caliber ammunition.

The XM1228 Bradley Aerial Defeat Group Enhanced Round, or BADGER, is a 25mm round that is meant to provide mechanized units protection against drones, Khan told Task & Purpose on Monday.

The BADGER is “really in very early stages of development,” Khan said. The Army will be conducting developmental testing on the BADGER next month, and it is scheduled to undergo live-fire testing this summer, Khan said.

Separately, the Army is testing the XM1225 Aviation Proximity Explosive, or APEX, a dual-purpose round for Apache helicopters. Khan said. The 30mm round is designed to airburst so that it can take out drones.

The XM1225 would be the first major enhancement for the Apache helicopter’s 30mm cannon in 30 years, Khan said.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I suspect the XM 1225 round would be perfect for dealing with Infantry in the open . As would it's 25 mm cousin.

 

[GK .Dundas]

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2024/10/14/army-moving-towards-counter-uxs-capabilities-interoperability

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/drones-military-pentagon-defense-331871f4?st=GUkcZS

.....

Again - GBAD at civil and military airfields as well as other VPs is a thing - even during peacetime.

It now appears that the gap between peace and war may now be measured in half second increments.
Disturbing to say the least.

 

[FJAG]

New paper by Watling and Bronk: "Protecting the Force from UAS".

https://static.rusi.org/protecting-the-force-from-uncrewed-uas.pdf

 

[Kirkhill]

USAF And USArmy struggling to find a new balance.

USArmy wants more Air Force. USAF wants more Army.

USAF intends to spread out over a larger number of bases which means more Air Defense troops from the Army.

“Even 10 years ago, Army air and missile defense as a portfolio was probably subordinate in terms of the amount of investment to things like aviation, combat vehicles, etc. Now it’s, I think, the highest overall, if not close to the highest,” said Camarillo.

In fiscal 2025, for example, the service is requesting some $5.6 billion across the portfolio, particularly focused on four main modernization efforts—the Indirect Fire Protection Capability System, the Integrated Battle Command System, the Lower Tier Air and Missile Defense System, and the Maneuver Short Range Air Defense system.

“As many people know, one signature modernization effort in a branch is normally a huge, significant deal. To be modernizing four key components of an air and missile defense architecture kill chain is huge,” said Maj. Gen. Frank Lozano, program executive officer for missiles and space.

Earlier this year, the Army also revealed plans to revamp its force structure, adding some 7,500 air defense billets and new units for everything from Patriot systems to counter-unmanned aerial system batteries.

Army Air and Missile Defense Growing to Meet Air Force Demand

The Army is working to modernize and grow its air and missile defense capabilities as it works with the Air Force on dispersed basing.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Kirkhill]

More on the same subject - Dispersing aircraft means more bases to defend.

The remote Pacific airfield used to launch the atomic bombings of Japan during World War II is being revived with a different foe in mind: China.

Runways emerging from the encroaching jungles on the tiny island of Tinian, a U.S. territory, are part of a sweeping shift in how America’s military would respond to a possible conflict in Asia.

Instead of relying on a few large air bases, the U.S. would disperse its warplanes to make them less vulnerable to China’s enormous arsenal of missiles. That means identifying, upgrading and reviving airstrips across the Indo-Pacific that could be pressed into service.

The U.S. Air Force calls this effort Agile Combat Employment, or ACE, and the rebuilding on Tinian is a key piece of that.

https://www.wsj.com/world/us-military-pacific-airfield-china-cc96cdc6?st=d3JRg8

Actually, it seems to me that the USMC has got a head start on that. Their Littoral Regiments (3 of them with a long range battery, a security battalion, an air defense/support battalion and a logistics battalion) which are designed to be split up into smaller forces and hold ground seem a custom fit for supporting an expeditionary air force. But the Marines have their own aircraft to consider. But the Marines have alternate basing options for their aircraft. They can launch from ships. The USAF needs the runways.

 

[childs56]

It's late and I'm tired, but I have to think that autonomous, unarmed vehicles are perfect targets for suicide bombers (yesterday's war), tethered drones/ground vehicles (today's war), and probably whatever will come next (guy with a laser/LED dazzler or air rifle messing with the follow sensor?)

Do you use lethal force on someone using non lethal force on a piece of equipment? It's not weapon or crypto, hopefully the follow vehicle fails safe and just stops so there's no risk to human life. Kid runs up to throw a bag over the sensor. Convoy stops and unbags sensor. 30 seconds later it happens again. We don't shot kids with garbage bags do we?

It's a tricky question.

Not tricky at all in my opinion.
Vehicle is delivering critical supplies, bullets fuel and food. Warning at the population to stop and then use of lethal force. The end user of the product has to come first. This is not winning hearts and minds, this is fighting in an environment that has changed.
It is a crappy situation to be in.

Similar to the training scenario where a kid has the M72 pointed at you from a distance. You shoot your wrong even after yelling the stop or I will shoot and yelling and signaling for them to put it on the ground.
As the experts said it was only a kid with an empty cannister.
I said I didn't know it is a kid and I don't know if it is live or not. I do know a weapon or facsimile was pointed at my crew and vehicle. I also know it is a threat until proven otherwise. Kid gets shot and we all go home alive (except the kid, but them are the breaks in a war torn situation) That situation sucks for all involved no matter how you deal with it.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Not tricky at all in my opinion.
Vehicle is delivering critical supplies, bullets fuel and food. Warning at the population to stop and then use of lethal force. The end user of the product has to come first. This is not winning hearts and minds, this is fighting in an environment that has changed.
It is a crappy situation to be in.

Similar to the training scenario where a kid has the M72 pointed at you from a distance. You shoot your wrong even after yelling the stop or I will shoot and yelling and signaling for them to put it on the ground.
As the experts said it was only a kid with an empty cannister.
I said I didn't know it is a kid and I don't know if it is live or not. I do know a weapon or facsimile was pointed at my crew and vehicle. I also know it is a threat until proven otherwise. Kid gets shot and we all go home alive (except the kid, but them are the breaks in a war torn situation) That situation sucks for all involved no matter how you deal with it.

So kid with garbage bag is the same as kid with what looks like a weapon? The old peacekeeping ROE exercises are irrelevant and nobody cares you got told you were wrong 20 years ago.

I'm thinking you have never been behind a GPMG on top of a truck stopped in a village with people carrying on with their lives and you have to decide whether to light up a car with 7.62 or send a flare their way to warn them off.

If you think shooting a kid with a garbage bag is ok, please hand in your passport and fuck off somewhere with a distinct lack of morals.

You're still wrong.

 

[childs56]

So kid with garbage bag is the same as kid with what looks like a weapon? The old peacekeeping ROE exercises are irrelevant and nobody cares you got told you were wrong 20 years ago.

A kid with a laser pointer may or may not look like a weapon. Usually looked like a laser pointer. The only guys who had lasers on weapons were spec op guys on our side that I seen at the time. Lasers could caused eye damage and wrecked critical sensors causing other issues.

Your just a gem arnt ya.

I'm thinking you have never been behind a GPMG on top of a truck stopped in a village with people carrying on with their lives and you have to decide whether to light up a car with 7.62 or send a flare their way to warn them off.

Never had to do that,
I did say "warning first, then shoot" similar to your shooting a flare or shooting a gpmg. Same principle.

If you think shooting a kid with a garbage bag is ok,

I would like to know how one would shoot with a garbage bag. Is this a new weapon i havent heard of?

please hand in your passport and fuck off somewhere with a distinct lack of morals.

My passport is good thanks. My morals are pretty good thanks.
my discussions get pretty Entertaining as does seeing responses to things.
I heard Ukraine was nice to visit before the war.

You're still wrong.

You should ask yourself does not shooting the kid save lives? Or does it endanger lives.

The dilemma of soldiers dealing with kids set with explosives, or picking up guns.
We don't choose the enemy or how they choose to fight their side of the war.

Had to make a decision once about having my gunner light a guy up with a gpmg/.50. I choose not to as middle of a village full of drunken pissed off ex Bosnian army guys armed to the teeth. Would not have faired well for our lightly armed patrol and camp.

Under your thinking I guess using artillery or aerial bombing is wrong also. It may take out innocents.