GBAD - The return of 'FOBS'

[FJAG]

Lots of these?

You know me. I like to make use of what we got. Everyone here bitches about the TAPV, but to me the TAPV offers several great features: its mine resistant; it has adequate armour protection against small arms and splinters; it can adequately hold a crew of four; and it has a flat roof where, with a bit of reinforcement, you can mount any number of remote weapon systems like a Moog turret offers.

IMHO, Canada needs a fleet of light armoured vehicles that can mix in with a LAV coy or Leo sqn or cbt tm and provide the close in CUAV, AD coverage that's needed. It's not a place for a pickup truck.

Say a battery of twelve to support a battalion. With 50 you could do the Latvian brigade. That's four batteries. Say a crew of four for 24/7 that 48 bodies - add in another 30 for C&C and CSS and that 320 folks, lets say 80 PYs (roto 0 and leadership) and 240 reservists.

Add another 2 batteries of light systems mounted on whatever the light battalions will get and Bob's your uncle.

There you go. A napkin force that cost $0.02 to produce and didn't need hundreds of thousands in consultant fees and a 5 year project to write a definition and SOR for. Give me another $0.03 and I'll draft a T&OE for you together with a PY/ARes manning source table and a glossy line diagram.

 

[GR66]

It seems that it's not as easy as it seems to re-purpose existing weapons in new applications.

Army 'prohibited' soldiers from using Hellfire with M-SHORAD on Strykers due to safety concerns - Breaking Defense

“The Hellfire was not designed to be driven around in a ground vehicle,” Army acquisition head Doug Bush told Breaking Defense.

breakingdefense.com

I wonder what other missile/rocket systems might face similar integration problems on vehicle-mounted applications?

 

[AmmoTech90]

Aweful easy to hit your maximum hours for captive carry vibration limits when you're driving rather than flying.

 

[FJAG]

It seems that it's not as easy as it seems to re-purpose existing weapons in new applications.

Army 'prohibited' soldiers from using Hellfire with M-SHORAD on Strykers due to safety concerns - Breaking Defense

“The Hellfire was not designed to be driven around in a ground vehicle,” Army acquisition head Doug Bush told Breaking Defense.

breakingdefense.com

I wonder what other missile/rocket systems might face similar integration problems on vehicle-mounted applications?

This little beast had roughly the same range as the Longbow and worked just fine in the field almost 3.5 decades ago now.

Maybe Oerlikon can dig out its plans and licence them to Lockheed?

 

[MilEME09]

Something GD-OTS is working on for an RWS mounted on a truck or armoured vehicle. Could be a cheap solution that could even be maintained by the ARes if mounted on the next generation LUV.

 

[Kirkhill]

Northrop-Grumman's entry into the cannon based air defence game.

Netting existing cannons from 30 to 155mm.

Cannon-Based Air Defense | Northrop Grumman

www.northropgrumman.com

 

[FJAG]

Northrop-Grumman's entry into the cannon based air defence game.

Netting existing cannons from 30 to 155mm.

Cannon-Based Air Defense | Northrop Grumman

www.northropgrumman.com

I put that one down into the glossy brochure category until I see some more details on how the overall system functions in general and specifically for the various weapon systems. It's an interesting idea but I see issues with the practicality. I'm all for cheaper systems ... but ...

 

[Kirkhill]

I put that one down into the glossy brochure category until I see some more details on how the overall system functions in general and specifically for the various weapon systems. It's an interesting idea but I see issues with the practicality. I'm all for cheaper systems ... but ...

The Ukrainians are well past the glossy brochure stage. The key is in the IBCS component (Integrated Battle Command System).

The Ukrainians have placed thousands of cell phones with microphones, at a cost of less than $500 apiece, around the country, to record aerial noises. The info is gathered centrally and disseminated generally so that cannons and SAMs can be alerted, and mobile units moved into the paths of the incoming missiles.

The US, and the rest of the West, is trying to play catch up while simultaneously figuring out how to maintain their profit margins and their monopolies. And those monopolies include the command monopolies.

I find it noteworthy that every American solution assumes the need for radar. The Ukrainian solutions are working around radar, and other emitters.

Rather than MRRs perhaps the RRCA should be beefing up its HALO systems.

....

And fibre optics

Jam-Proof Fiber Optic Drone Testing In Ukraine

The HCX drone communicates via a fiber-optic cable, making it immune to all electronic warfare. This makes it valuable in the densely-jammed airspace of Ukraine.

www.forbes.com

Newish to this conflict but EFOG-M, Polyphem and Spike NLOS (Exactor) have been around since the 1980s.

Fibre optics can be laid below ground in fixed installations and be jam proof and undetectable.

 

[Kirkhill]

Ukraine’s cheap sensors are helping troops fight off waves of Russian drones

Sub-$500 rig helps save expensive air-defense missiles for bigger threats.

www.defenseone.com

Dubbed “Sky Fortress,” the concept was developed by two Ukrainian engineers in a garage who put a microphone and a cell phone on a six-foot pole to listen for one-way UAVs, said Gen. James Hecker, commander of U.S. Air Forces in Europe and Africa.

“They put about 9,500 of these within their nation and now they get very accurate information that is synthesized in a central computer and sent out to mobile fire teams. And on an iPad, they get a route of flight of these one-way UAVs coming in, and they have a triple-A [anti-aircraft] gun and a person with six hours of training can shoot these down,” Hecker told reporters at the Royal International Air Tattoo on Saturday.

 

[FJAG]

Rather than MRRs perhaps the RRCA should be beefing up its HALO systems.

It just so happens that it is under the Land ISR Modernization project which is a funded program. As is joint fires modernization (the C2 architecture) and GBAD. I expect the folks at DLR are looking at all the same glossy brochures that you are.

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to the glossy brochures wars ....

Army to test hypervelocity projectile for 155mm cannon artillery

The Army will spend roughly three years studying the physics of shooting the hypervelocity projectile from 155mm cannons.

www.armytimes.com

The service is pursuing such a capability as a potential munition for eliminating cheaper targets, rather than using high-end missiles for the same mission, Rasch told Defense News at the Space and Missile Defense Symposium.

As part of the evaluation the Army will also look at autoloader capabilities. It will also aim to ensure the projectile will reliably work while tied into the Integrated Battle Command System, the command-and-control system that connects any sensor and shooter on the battlefield.

“It’s got to fight as part of Army formations,” Rasch stressed.

It strikes me that the US/NATO is heading towards the 155 as a common standard in the same fashion that the Germans did with the 88.

The 88 was an assault gun, a field gun, an anti-tank gun, a tank gun, an anti-aircraft gun, a coastal defence gun and a naval gun used on gun boats and submarines. The 155 seems to be ramping up from a low pressure howitzer to a higher pressure cannon capable of launching self-guided and self-propelled missiles to great distances at high rates of fire over long distances and at low cost.

Industry, Army hit range records in tests of new artillery projectiles

A Boeing-Nammo team and BAE Systems have both achieved new distance records with projectiles in development for long-distance cannon artillery.

www.defensenews.com

BAE has its XM1155-SC which may or may not require the ERCA cannon (cancelled in March of this year) to achieve its full potential.
Boeing-NAMMO has its Ramjet, which is more developmentally mature and can be launched by existing 39 calibre 155 cannons.

Boeing-Nammo Ramjet 155 sets new distance as companies plan to add guidance system​

10th October 2023 - 15:30 GMT | by The Shephard News Team in London

Future tests of Nammo-Boeing's Ramjet 155 munition will integrate a precision guidance system. (Photo: Boeing)

The results of the latest test were announced on 9 October and follow a previous record which was set in May last year.

According to the companies, the firing is a record for longest indirect fire test of a ramjet-powered artillery projectile. The distance covered was undisclosed but a company official said it was more than a third longer than than the previous firing.

It took place alongside officials from the US Army and involved firing a Ramjet 155 munition from a 58-caliber Extended Range Cannon Artillery at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona. The test advances development efforts for the army’s top modernisation priority, Long Range Precision Fires.

The success follows last year’s Boeing-Nammo test recording the longest-ever indirect fire test of a Ramjet 155 munition. That test was completed using a 39-caliber towed artillery cannon at the Andøya Test Center in Norway.

In an upcoming test, Boeing and Nammo will integrate a precision guidance system, leveraging a Joint Direct Attack Munition mission computer onto the Ramjet 155

This demonstration will evaluate the system’s maturity and effectiveness against stationary and moving targets, and readiness to transition into the next phase of development.

Nammo CEO Morten Brandtzæg said: ‘We believe the major development hurdles have now been cleared and production is viable within a relatively short timeframe.’

4,600 mph

Ramjet technology – Quick facts: These engines can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,600 mph; 7,400 km/h).

The range revolution - Nammo

By comparison standard SAM missiles operate in the Mach 3 to Mach 4 range or about half the speed.

 

[Kirkhill]

If one gun can be acquired for dual purposes then what happens if.....

The RRCA equips all militia regiments with 6 gun 155mm Air Defence Batteries (Archer type self loaders on wheels). The same batteries can also supply General Support.

Similar rationale for infantry and cavalry to acquire 30/35mm cannons for local air defence - but the calibre is sufficiently well developed with a large variety of fuses and warheads to supply counters to personnel and vehicles of all sorts.

Beating the National Defence drum again - trying to sell the need for good equipment to Canadians that perceive no threat.

I believe that the UAS threat is not only real but can be demonstrated to the lads at the lake as real.

Disruptions to air travel are a civilian concern.

 

[Kirkhill]

Battle of Goose Green, Falklands 1982

After securing Darwin Ridge, C and D Companies began to make their way to the small airfield, as well as to Darwin School (to the east of the airfield), while B Company made their way south of Goose Green Settlement. A Company remained on Darwin Hill. C Company took heavy losses when they became the target of intense direct fire from 35 mm anti-aircraft guns from Goose Green.

Private Mark Hollman-Smith, a signaller in the company headquarters, was killed by anti-aircraft fire while trying to recover a heavy machine gun from wounded Private Steve Russell. C Company's commander, Major Roger Jenner, his signaller and eight other men were also wounded.

In the airfield itself, Argentine Air Force anti-aircraft gunners (under Lieutenant Darío Del Valle Valazza) from the 1st Anti-Aircraft Group (Grupo 1 de Artillería Antiaérea or G1AA) and the 12IR platoon under Sub-Lieutenant Carlos Oslvaldo Aldao, attempted to halt the renewed advance from Boca Hill but eventually they were forced to abandon their positions, including the five remaining 20 mm Rheinmetall guns at Cóndor airfield, having earlier lost one of these guns to naval shelling as well as the Elta radar to MILAN missiles or mortar fire.

This is why I keep harking back to Air Field Defence as a legitimate ops, planning and training task for the Reserves. It is a locally available training area that demands a combined arms approach.

 

[markppcli]

If one gun can be acquired for dual purposes then what happens if.....

The RRCA equips all militia regiments with 6 gun 155mm Air Defence Batteries (Archer type self loaders on wheels). The same batteries can also supply General Support.

Similar rationale for infantry and cavalry to acquire 30/35mm cannons for local air defence - but the calibre is sufficiently well developed with a large variety of fuses and warheads to supply counters to personnel and vehicles of all sorts.

Beating the National Defence drum again - trying to sell the need for good equipment to Canadians that perceive no threat.

I believe that the UAS threat is not only real but can be demonstrated to the lads at the lake as real.

Disruptions to air travel are a civilian concern.

Nothing happens because in the unbelievably unlikely event one of those air ports is attacked the reservists manning the guns are probably not on duty.

 

[Kirkhill]

Nothing happens because in the unbelievably unlikely event one of those air ports is attacked the reservists manning the guns are probably not on duty.

I don't care if they are on duty or not.

It would provide an organizational and training focus for a local combined arms team. The team would learn skills that they could apply to a national expeditionary force if they volunteered.

And in the event that Pearson airport came under a denial of service attack using cyber and UAS assets then the local government would actually be able to call out qualified troops that actually knew a smick about working together and managing security issues.

As FJAG keeps saying Reserves are not for routine requirements, they are for the occasional.

If there is a real problem call them out. But there is no "them" if they are not recruited, organized trained and equipped in advance.

And the only way you will find recruits is to convince them that their time is not being wasted, that they are training for a useful task.

Not everybody wants to join The Canadian Foreign Legion and go swanning around Latvia.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The UK has done it on occasion

The RAF Regiment also have their own reserves as well
RAF Regiment - Wikipedia

As part of the CCG (and our Auxiliary CCG) we did yearly combined exercises with all agencies for airport disasters. You could task a couple of armour and infantry reserve units to do a yearly exercise, scheduled the same time each year. So they can learn to work with the airport, RCMP, CBSA. Money for pay can be allocated from the Public Safety Canada. Start the exercises small, everyone learns what everyone can and can't do. You can build it up if things are working.
Units and airports involved can be determined by a variety of factors (importance, unit availability, funds, etc). It's clearly a thing in the world, and if we can twist PSC to fund part of it, then might be a way to squeeze in some extra local training.

 

[markppcli]

I don't care if they are on duty or not.

It would provide an organizational and training focus for a local combined arms team. The team would learn skills that they could apply to a national expeditionary force if they volunteered.

What combined arms ? You’ve said it but have yet to show it

And in the event that Pearson airport came under a denial of service attack using cyber and UAS assets then the local government would actually be able to call out qualified troops that actually knew a smick about working together and managing security issues.

Would they? I don’t know how many recruits you netting with the call to defend the Winnipeg Airport. Contrary to your assertion, the time we actually did have a surplus in recruits was when we were engaged in combat operations in recruiting - young people want adventure not to be used as security guards. Now for my next point.

Not everybody wants to join The Canadian Foreign Legion and go swanning around Latvia.

You know I avoid responding your more… imaginative posts without using insulting, demeaning, or very direct language. It’s a matter of respecting you as a person. However I find the implication that guys and gals going on deployments to provide forward defence for the alliance are just there “swanning about” and not doing anything to be the complete opposite of this. It is infact insulting, rude, demeaning and displays and utter and complete lack of respect for the sacrifices those soldiers and their families are making. What’s worse is now you feel you’ve earned some right to talk down to those who have made those sacrifices, and about them.

 

[KevinB]

I don't care if they are on duty or not.

It would provide an organizational and training focus for a local combined arms team. The team would learn skills that they could apply to a national expeditionary force if they volunteered.

And in the event that Pearson airport came under a denial of service attack using cyber and UAS assets then the local government would actually be able to call out qualified troops that actually knew a smick about working together and managing security issues.

As FJAG keeps saying Reserves are not for routine requirements, they are for the occasional.

If there is a real problem call them out. But there is no "them" if they are not recruited, organized trained and equipped in advance.

And the only way you will find recruits is to convince them that their time is not being wasted, that they are training for a useful task.

Not everybody wants to join The Canadian Foreign Legion and go swanning around Latvia.

You really need to start pulling you head from your ass. You don’t have a fucking clue about half of what you are talking about and seem to gulp down OS tripe like it is gospel.

 

[FJAG]

Just found this one

 

[daftandbarmy]

The UK has done it on occasion

The RAF Regiment also have their own reserves as well
RAF Regiment - Wikipedia

As part of the CCG (and our Auxiliary CCG) we did yearly combined exercises with all agencies for airport disasters. You could task a couple of armour and infantry reserve units to do a yearly exercise, scheduled the same time each year. So they can learn to work with the airport, RCMP, CBSA. Money for pay can be allocated from the Public Safety Canada. Start the exercises small, everyone learns what everyone can and can't do. You can build it up if things are working.
Units and airports involved can be determined by a variety of factors (importance, unit availability, funds, etc). It's clearly a thing in the world, and if we can twist PSC to fund part of it, then might be a way to squeeze in some extra local training.

Except in this case the threat was from terrorist attacks, which various regiments were tasked to deter. Heathrow's been through similar incidents since the 70s.

We don't have a domestic threat to airports like that, and likely never will.

Troops deployed at Heathrow against terror threat

More than 400 soldiers were drafted in to provide extra security at Heathrow Airport and a number of other unspecified sites across London today to combat a new terrorist threat.

www.independent.co.uk