G8/G20 June 2010 Protest Watch

[aesop081]

Yay for media manipulation and human nature to pay attention more to violence and where the 'action' is at.

You (mellian) dont even have the ability to recognize the PR/image problem you (protesters) have, let alone adress it, so this will go around in a circle all day long. If the "peaceful demonstrators" dont take steps to deal with "the few", the message will always be lost.

That is like saying we should disband the Canadian Forces because of a few murders and rapists.

I knew that is exactly what you were going to bring up. As my aviator freind Loachman has posted, the CF are self-policing and accountable to the public and problems are dealt with. None of you little groups are in that position.

Ask the average joe on the street and they remember more the protests and police than what the summits are about.

And whos fault is that ?

: maybe one day you will wake up......

 

[Fishbone Jones]

C'mon guys. You knew what you were getting into.  : There is only one person to blame for your exasperation and annoyance. 

 

[ballz]

Because they would be spending their time doing something actually productive?

No, I agree with you that the G8/G20 protesters are f**kin wack, stupid, and useless, and will accomplish nothing, but your rant seemed to go outside those specific protesters, it seemed more like a blanket statement about all protests in general.

Does anyone even care about protests? I know when I drive by them in Ottawa all the time I don't really care. Their a nuisance and if they were standing beside a giant puddle I would go out of my way to splash them.

Quite frankly, I understood parliament being prorogued prior to the Olympics for many reasons, but I was more than happy to see a s**tload of Canadians actually exercise their rights as Canadians in a democratic country and go out and wave those signs, chant slogans, in a peaceful and collective manner. I think it's hard to say that they didn't get their message out, create awareness across the country that there is a lot of people pi$$ed off about this, or that the protest was about the protesters and not the message.

Like I said, I will be more worried when people aren't protesting a war, some environmental issue, (insert random issue here), etc, whether I agree with them or not, than one day we go to war and nobody suggests anything to the contrary... then there would be a real reason to worry.

 

[mellian]

Just as they remember more about the protests and police than what the protests are about.

Perhaps if the protest groups took better steps to prevent the violent few from destroying property that other people worked very hard for, everybody would be happier - especially the property-owners.

A handful of people may actually remember what the protest groups' messages were as well.

What can the protest groups do that will not result into violence to prevent the few that commit violence and vandalism, short from calling them out on it and refusing to get involved in those acts? They have no authourity to use force, and if they tried, the police and security would still swoop in and arrest/tear gas/rubber bullet people to stop it the violence no matter its origin.

As you mentioned below, there is complete differences in organization. Multiple groups of many individuals plus many more individuals without any groups who only come together for one general reason and nothing else. Can say it is as close one can get to rough consensus anarchy (ideal version, not chaos or black bloc).

No, it is not.

For one, the organizational purposes are completely different, and secondly, the CF takes responsibility for the actions of its members, which the protest movement clearly does not.

Any CF member who commits a crime will be investigated, arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and punished in either the military or civilian justice systems as appropriate. I have yet to see a protest group turn a violent thug in their midst in to the police for suitable and proper treatment.

No matter the differences in organization or how one deals with their bad apples, the logic still stands. How does one convince the many to just stop or disband because of the actions of few? Trouble enough to get rights of the minority protected in this country or any other. Just look at Thailand recently.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

May not agree, but many others do not. Discredit them as much as you like base on the actions of few, but remember that the same can be done for other groups and organizations as all unfortunately have their bad apples too.

Okay, riddle me this: 
The "legitimate" protesters go to an awful lot of time and organization to put these things together.  And they don't seem to lack intelligence.  So why is it they don't have a plan in place to isolate and immobilize anarchists?  If the groups worked with the police to stem the violence and property damage, that would give WAY more credibility to their message.  However, all I see are asshats taking pictures and enjoying a bunch of masked punks "sticking it to the man".  And they are perfectly happy to see said asshats getting tuned up.  Why couldn't those "camera enthusiasts" cooperate with a group who pull off an anarchists mask and then snap his pic?  With the understanding that the pictures will be turned over to the police? 

Just as they remember more about the protests and police than what the protests are about.

Perhaps if the protest groups took better steps to prevent the violent few from destroying property that other people worked very hard for, everybody would be happier - especially the property-owners.

A handful of people may actually remember what the protest groups' messages were as well.

My point exactly. 

 

[aesop081]

Trouble enough to get rights of the minority protected in this country .

Yeah, its horrible alright.  :

Just look at Thailand recently.

Do you even understand whats going on there ?

 

[mellian]

You (mellian) dont even have the ability to recognize the PR/image problem you (protesters) have, let alone adress it, so this will go around in a circle all day long. If the "peaceful demonstrators" dont take steps to deal with "the few", the message will always be lost.

You (CDN Aviator) seem to not have the ability, and making point to not try, to grasp the reality of handling large group of people from the perspective of the organizers and marshals.

You propose the "peaceful protesters" do something about the few idiots that like to go up against the police, commit and vandalize. I am trying to draw you (and other readers in general) a picture of what a would be organizer/marshal has to deal with if they try dealing with the minority few idiots.

First reality:  Protests comprising dozens to hundreds of different groups comprise of many of individuals (all civilians and majority non-violent pacifists/pro-solidarity) PLUS all the individuals (all civilians and majority non-violent pacifists/pro-solidarity) without any association or part of any group does equal well discipline organization with a set chain of command.

Second reality: Whether or not we or anyone agrees about the purpose of a protest, or whether the organizers/marshals decide the protest/demonstration is a failure, they have no means to stop people to continue.

Third reality: Organizers and marshals (usually from various groups with possible different agendas) can only really operate with consensus and to some degree influence. They also have no real authourity, especially that of force as the only folks that have that legally is the police and military in this country. People will only follow organizers and marshals because they can convince them too. If a few is vandalizing and committing violence, most they can do is verbally say so (with the response usually being f**k you) and possibly get others to verbally call them on it.

Fourth reality: The larger the protest/demonstration is, the more mob like it can become, and the harder to influence and convince. The difficulty increases the more riled up people are from stress, emotions, adrenaline, and such.

Fifth reality: All these factors apply to any protest/demonstration/marches/concerts/etc no matter the reason why they are there or protesting.

I am saying all this from my experiences as a marshal/one of the organizers/observer of some past protests, demonstrations, and marches in Ottawa, and observer only for a few marches and one protest here in Montreal. Then is other non-activist events that I helped organized/managed/volunteer at where large amount of people are involved.

I knew that is exactly what you were going to bring up.

You were baiting for it.

: maybe one day you will wake up......

How should I wake up?

 

[mariomike]

This thing has been described in the papers as a "disaster in the making". The City of Toronto urged them to have it at Exhibition Place instead of the  Metro Toronto Convention Centre on the edge of the Financial District:
"The recent announcement by the Prime Minister's Office regarding the G20 Summit is going to have a dramatic and difficult impact on our neighbourhoods. The federal government has chosen to locate the event in Ward 20 without any prior consultation.
We need them to start working with us, and that means listening to us, and quite clearly, the folks up in Ottawa are much better at talking than listening.
It’s not the safety of the leaders that should be forefront in our minds, it’s the safety of the residences just outside the security perimeters.
The city has tried to convince Ottawa to move this event to Exhibition Place, but the federal government insists on staging it near Front Street, between Yonge and Spadina."
Toronto Councillor Adam Vaughn represents Ward 20.

"Front St. wrong place for G20 leaders to meet: Editorial
By Toronto Sun":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2010/02/18/12937011.html

To me, this decision to relocate from Exhibition Place to The Metro Toronto Convention Centre makes about as much sense as President Obama deciding to host a G20 on Wall Street in NYC.

The quote below from Mr. Wallace sums up my opinion about democratic life:

What I don't understand is why these groups need to protest?  If it wasn't for their complete apathy during Municipal, Provincial and National Elections, the greatest means available in this society to lodge a legitimate complaint in a legitimized forum for protest, then there would be no need for these forms of protest and their potential for violence and distruction.

If these people would exercise their democratic rights to vote and elected the people that they seriously thought could champion their causes, then we wouldn't have the riff raff causing problems for the rest of us at these events.

How come these supposed champions of all these fringe causes haven't figured out that when they don't exercise their franchise to vote in Municiple, Provincial, and Federal Elections, they really haven't any legitimate reason to complain.  Apathy on their part is no reason to use violence to champion a cause they were not dedicated enough to fight for come election time.  Why should we pay attention to them, if they can't be bothered to use legitimate means?  It speaks volumes as to who they are.

 

[aesop081]

to grasp the reality of handling large group of people from the perspective of the organizers and marshals.

Yeah, you are right. I have no idea what it is like to handle large groups and organize them. Where would i have picked up experiences like that..........oh wait......

You propose the "peaceful protesters" do something about the few idiots that like to go up against the police, commit and vandalize.

Yup, thats exactly it. Ever think of reporting "the few" to the police during the protest or afterwards ? Or is that just not your responsability ?

 

[Jarnhamar]

What can the protest groups do that will not result into violence

Don't show up with hoodies, bandana's, rocks and molitov cocktails.

When people start going ape shit don't egg them on by shouting and cheering, by taking pictures and giving them an audience.  Turn around and go the other way.
When they play shovey face with police officers surround them and make it VERY clear to them that what they are doing is unwanted and they should piss off.

 

[mellian]

Okay, riddle me this: 
The "legitimate" protesters go to an awful lot of time and organization to put these things together.  And they don't seem to lack intelligence.  So why is it they don't have a plan in place to isolate and immobilize anarchists?  If the groups worked with the police to stem the violence and property damage, that would give WAY more credibility to their message.  However, all I see are asshats taking pictures and enjoying a bunch of masked punks "sticking it to the man".  And they are perfectly happy to see said asshats getting tuned up.  Why couldn't those "camera enthusiasts" cooperate with a group who pull off an anarchists mask and then snap his pic?  With the understanding that the pictures will be turned over to the police? 

Lack of resources and lack of consensus. A long with the overriding goal of achieving some degree of solidarity among the multiple groups and focus on general goal. Then there is also fear (violent few, violence in general, police, etc) and distrust.

I know in Ottawa in the past, the closest that was managed was an agreement to keep their 'direct actions' separate from the peaceful marches/demonstrations.  Even then, have no control or authourity over the people, apart from informing them of "the plan" and schedule.

As for the photographers, most of them usually part of the media (independent or corporate or student), freelancers, and just random people.  Not much the groups can do anything about it, even if they wanted to.

 

[mellian]

Yeah, you are right. I have no idea what it is like to handle large groups and organize them. Where would i have picked up experiences like that..........oh wait......

As a organizer or/and marshal of the protest, as in one of the protesters and part of one the groups running/organizing/ whatever the protest?

Yup, thats exactly it. Ever think of reporting "the few" to the police during the protest or afterwards ? Or is that just not your responsability ?

Yes, just that it is a bit hard to report people you do not know especially those with masks, and those I do happen to know the Ottawa Police already knew. And to do so in the middle of a protest risk discrediting myself, removing any remote control or influence as marshal or one of the organizers.

Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).

 

[The Bread Guy]

Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).

If the group has ways of checking what you're up to and calling you on it, then the same methods can be applied to other individuals.  If the group decides to use these tools against possible police "collaborators" and not against people causing violence or damage, that reflects the group's priorities.  If you're not part of the solution....

 

[mellian]

If the group has ways of checking what you're up to and calling you on it, then the same methods can be applied to other individuals.  If the group decides to use these tools against possible police "collaborators" and not against people causing violence or damage, that reflects the group's priorities.  If you're not part of the solution....

To clarify, it was not the group, it was random protesters in attendance that questioned me. As in, if I had a few deciding/convinced I was police collaborator, I would get ratted out and outcast not so similar manner they do with suspected police provacateurs.

 

[ballz]

Random protesters are part of the "group" no? I don't see how what you just said changes his point?

I'm all for protesting but I can't argue with the people here that are arguing with you about violent protesting... They are right. Right from the leadership on down there seems to be no intent to curb people from being retarded.

 

[mellian]

Random protesters are part of the "group" no? I don't see how what you just said changes his point?

Group as in the people help organize/marshal with at the time, which I did not for the protests those two incidents happen. There is also multiple groups involved within a protest, not all on the same page about everything.

I'm all for protesting but I can't argue with the people here that are arguing with you about violent protesting... They are right. Right from the leadership on down there seems to be no intent to curb people from being retarded.

I have a proposal:

Form a group that attend these protests starting the organizing meetings beforehand. Goal would a be combination of observing and aid in stopping/convince/aid police to locate stop and arrest those who commit violence and vandalism, all through legal means, as well promote organizers and marshal do themselves and help provide the means how. It is to make protests safer, more accountable, and make the jobs easier for the police. It would be way to know what really is going then debating and passing overarching judgment online.

 

[PuckChaser]

Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).

If they didn't have the intent to do something illegal, there should be no reason they should have been scared of you talking to the Police. Being shifty around a cop usually sets off alarm bells.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If your so called organizers and marshals cannot control the people they organized and marshalled they are neither. Just some sort of self important people that feel they have to be in charge of something, whether they can or not.

Please stop insulting our intelligence by giving these people some sort of stature they are not capable of fulfilling. It's obvious that once you people leave the basement, or wherever you have your meetings, and hit the street, you have no control over the rabble you've brought together, whipped into a frenzy and released on the rest of society.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I have a proposal:

Form a group that attend these protests starting the organizing meetings beforehand. Goal would a be combination of observing and aid in stopping/convince/aid police to locate stop and arrest those who commit violence and vandalism, all through legal means, as well promote organizers and marshal do themselves and help provide the means how. It is to make protests safer, more accountable, and make the jobs easier for the police. It would be way to know what really is going then debating and passing overarching judgment online.

I guess the question should be:  with all the organizational work apparently going on among protest groups, why aren't they doing this?

 

[mellian]

I guess the question should be:  with all the organizational work apparently going on among protest groups, why aren't they doing this?

"Lack of resources and lack of consensus. A long with the overriding goal of achieving some degree of solidarity among the multiple groups and focus on general goal. Then there is also fear (violent few, violence in general, police, etc) and distrust."