FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[aesop081]

I see.  So it might buy 1 or 2 years?

not much more than that......

i should be drinking coke out of cans made from our CC-130E already. Some of them are already gathering dust as they are past 40 000 hours on the airframe.  The CC-130H, as i understand it are a little better but not far off.  Its the price, IMHO, of having used a tactical airlifter as a strategic airlifter for so many years with a small number of airframes.

My understanding is that once the CC-130J arrives, the CC-130H will still be used but they dont have too long to live either. I wouldnt be surpised if the CC-115s outlive the Hs

 

[Good2Golf]

not much more than that......

i should be drinking coke out of cans made from our CC-130E already. Some of them are already gathering dust as they are past 40 000 hours on the airframe.  The CC-130H, as i understand it are a little better but not far off.  Its the price, IMHO, of having used a tactical airlifter as a strategic airlifter for so many years with a small number of airframes.

My understanding is that once the CC-130J arrives, the CC-130H will still be used but they dont have too long to live either. I wouldnt be surpised if the CC-115s outlive the Hs

CDNAviator, kind of like the quote about the crew of the last Blackhawk put to bed being picked up and taken home by a Huey.  ;D

You may very well be right...


G2G

 

[ringo]

This seems to be a two horse race, but could a SAR version of the USN's Grumman COD aircraft fill Canada's requirements.
The production line is currently building E-2D Hawkeye's but a few COD types should not be a problem, the USN will be due for another batch of COD types once there Hawkeye buy is fulfilled.

 

[childs56]

Maybe they are waiting for the companys to a actually come up with what we want, instead of what they are telling us we want.

 

[aesop081]

Have you been in a C-2 Greyhound ?

too small

 

[Rigger]

Herc + mountains  = bad. Until they find a plane that can do what the buff does, it will be here for a while.

 

[time expired]

Wrong, blaming the war in A-stan for the government being unwilling to supply the Forces with
the equipment it needs to do any of many tasks it is called upon to do,is IMO wrong.Canada,with
a mere 14mio.population managed to support a 4+div. force in Europe and still have enough left
over to defend the homeland.Now with a population of 30+mio.we cannot support a force of
2500 in A-stan and do SAR at home!.Something wrong with our political direction and their
priorities IMO.
                    Regards

 

[28402 engineers]

Wrong, blaming the war in A-stan for the government being unwilling to supply the Forces with
the equipment it needs to do any of many tasks it is called upon to do,is IMO wrong.Canada,with
a mere 14mio.population managed to support a 4+div. force in Europe and still have enough left
over to defend the homeland.Now with a population of 30+mio.we cannot support a force of
2500 in A-stan and do SAR at home!.Something wrong with our political direction and their
priorities IMO.
                    Regards

You've got a point, but back in them days, there was that ever-present danger that Canada may be invaded by first Germany, then the Soviet Union. Besides, decades of neglecting the military, and then suddenly trying to revive it costs money. The conservatives are only a minority, so if they spend too much on anything (especially defence), the opposition's gonna get a might cranky.
I don't agree that we should sacrifice one thing for another when both are needed, but I'd perfer to have to pick and choose rather than get nothing at all. Wouldn't you?

regards,
Matt

 

[childs56]

SAR is one of the main operations that the CF carrys out.
I think they are waiting to see what else comes along. None of the contenders provided a proper platform with out adding to extra over head in the way of support bases, and equipment limitations. 

I like the Buff, I think it should be re manufactured, and then built. They still have the jigs for the aircraft, and it would keep Canadian Aerospace industry busy for a while. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

You just can't shuffle off those Buffaloes (let's just hope for a decent UAV):

Overseas missions alter plans at air force
40-year-old Buffalo aircraft to stay at CFB Comox
Victoria Times Colonist, April 29

The head of Canada's air force denies reports there's not enough money to replace the country's aging search-and-rescue aircraft, but admits purchasing replacements has been delayed because the air force is acquiring other aircraft to be used, primarily, in Afghanistan.

Lt.-Gen. Steve Lucas, Air Force chief of staff, said the armed forces is spending considerable effort -- and billions of dollars -- in purchasing four C-17 Globemaster long-range heavy-lift aircraft and 17 new Hercules C-130J transport aircraft. The military is also purchasing Chinook helicopters, and leasing tanks for its mission in Afghanistan.

All of this is reportedly bad news for oft-discussed plans to replace the 40-year-old Buffalo aircraft. Six of the planes are stationed at CFB Comox and, along with Cormorant helicopters, are used to fly rescue missions across British Columbia...

"It is not a question of money so much as it is a question of the people resources we have to work on this," he told the Times Colonist in an interview Friday in Victoria.

"We cannot do all of these things at the same time. We have to spread them out a little bit."

Even with all the money it wanted, the air force would be hard-pressed to find the trained manpower to bring all the new aircraft into service, while also overhauling search and rescue, said Lucas.

The aging Buffalo should last until 2015 without major investments, he said. That means the military will have to decide on a replacement before 2010 to get the new planes on time, said Lucas.

Privately, search and rescue crews have grumbled about continued delayed promises...

A future focus will be intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance by unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), said Lucas.

The current fleet of remote-controlled Canadian Sperwer drones does not react well to the hot conditions of Afghanistan and will likely be replaced by new UAVs in the future, he said.

Depending on what the military purchases, CFB Comox could see a squadron of UAVs stationed on Vancouver Island, said Lucas.

"We haven't made up our minds yet as to where out West we are going to base these. But in the longer term, there's a possibility that certainly Comox might factor into that discussion."..

Mark
Ottawa

 

[peaches]

The CF cannot purchase new SAR aircraft because the $$ is being diverted to the Afghan war.  Total BS.  That's like saying the fire dept cannot buy ladders to get kittens out of tree because they are fighting too many fires.  Combat, war, is the job of the militray.  Give the military more money folks, problem solved.

On the other hand, we do not spend the $$ we get that wisely sometimes.  The CF wastes alot, bases open that shouldn't be, other BS programs that have nothing to do with operations.  Hard questions should be asked about the military roles, perhaps we should not be doing domestic SAR.  Perhaps that should be the responsibility of the Canadian Coast Guard.  Perhaps the CCG should be re-aligned, re-equipped to conduct SAR, leaving the military to deal with the combat, warfighting problems.......

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Perhaps the CCG should be re-aligned, re-equipped to conduct SAR, leaving the military to deal with the combat, warfighting problems.......

Spreading heresies like that will get you thrown out of the Air Force...

 

[peaches]

Sorry, I thought as Airforce types we were supposed to be in the warfighting business....

 

[Zoomie]

Sorry, I thought as Airforce types we were supposed to be in the warfighting business....

Not much of that going on right now....  Apart from the Herc community.

Let's get rid of the CF-188s first - big money sucker there...

SAR is one of the most operational communities in the AF - give the money to those who can and will use it every day.

 

[Journeyman]

Sorry, I thought as Airforce types we were supposed to be in the warfighting business....

Some of the Airforce is in the warfighting business already.

As for the others....building overpriced accommodations for people waiting for the Russians to come across the arctic (perhaps Taliban SEALs paddling across Lake Nippising) -- or wasting money on those 'Coast Guard wannabe SAR floppers'??  Hmmmm.....

We all have a role, but you may wish to be careful before you make it an "us" vs. "them".....I think I know whose budget I'd be slashing, introducing their now-surplus PYs to rucks first.   

 

[Good2Golf]

Not just Hercs... 

Tac Hel is operating TUAV which, amongst other things like recce and surveillance, can control and direct fires in support of the troops on the ground.  You don't have to be a CF-18 to provide support to your fellow warfighter on the ground.

Re: delay to fixed-wing SAR platform, the Department is simply prioritizing the use of resources against all the demands being placed on the system.  It does not mean that the provision of SAR capability to the Canadian domestic area of operations is any less important.

G2G

 

[aesop081]

Not just Hercs... 

  You don't have to be a CF-18 to provide support to your fellow warfighter on the ground.

Hence why i am flying in support of EX MAPLE GUARDIAN in Wainwright for the next little while.

 

[Kirkhill]

I wonder if they couldn't do to the Buff what they did to the Hornet.  From what I can gather they basically took the old C/D series drawings on AutoCad and hit the Scale button to create a larger aircraft in all dimensions then adjusted the engines to suit.

How much more cargo volume do Zoomie and Rigger need over what the Buff currently offers?  Range? Altitude? Speed?

 

[Astrodog]

I wonder if they couldn't do to the Buff what they did to the Hornet.  From what I can gather they basically took the old C/D series drawings on AutoCad and hit the Scale button to create a larger aircraft in all dimensions then adjusted the engines to suit.

  If you're talking about the 18E and Fs then you are wayyy off... they are pretty much new planes..

 

[Kirkhill]

Astrodog - I was talking about the SuperHornets.  I admit to hyperbolic oversimplification  ;D - and I will stand to be proven wrong - but my understanding was that one of the primary reasons that the SuperHornet made it from the drawing boards to the flight line in record time at a manageable cost was the use of the C/Ds as a proven base from which to scale up.  That doesn't mean that engines, avionics, fuel cells, even structural members all have to be revisited - but speaking from experience in other fields it is an awful lot easier to re-engineer a known quantity than to start from a clean sheet of paper.