FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Loachman]

If it's controlled, it's not a "drone". Drones are preprogrammed prior to launch, with no alterations to the mission possible once launch has occurred.

RPVs are controlled.

Both are subsets of the UAV species.

As for EITS' cost question, I don't know, but Sperwer was the most expensive aircraft in the CF during its day, when all costs were included.

We would still have to pay for a crew, plus expensive ground control systems and, for longer-range missions, satellite control systems, and the only gain for that would be endurance.

There were several times, during my Sperwer tour, when we were the only ISAF aircraft flying in Kandahar Province. The bigger and fancier UAVs could not operate as low as we could, and could not see through cloud layers that we flew under. The same was generally true of manned aircraft. Weather conditions sometimes precluded helicopter operations as well, but we would be up.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a UAV bearing in at me in (likely) crappy conditions/IMC.  If its shitty enough the SAR Tech's can't get to me...

I know a lot of people really like the idea of UAVs, I don't see them as useful in applications like SAR and stuff MPAs normally do.  :2c:

But UAVs don't require pensions  ;D

 

[KevinB]

Maybe the UAV folks could pitch it as a secondary duty 

I'm a total layman on UAV operations, but generally for the ground mission, you send a recon robot somewhere you don't want to go first.  Which again as not a SAR guy, I do not think is the application.
 
I think some ISR UAV's may have carry over into the S of SAR, but they cannot affect a rescue - and while some of the large payload enabled ones could drop items - more often than not a person (or persons) are going to have to go in to get the rescuee.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If it's controlled, it's not a "drone". Drones are preprogrammed prior to launch, with no alterations to the mission possible once launch has occurred.

RPVs are controlled.

Both are subsets of the UAV species.

As for EITS' cost question, I don't know, but Sperwer was the most expensive aircraft in the CF during its day, when all costs were included.

We would still have to pay for a crew, plus expensive ground control systems and, for longer-range missions, satellite control systems, and the only gain for that would be endurance.

There were several times, during my Sperwer tour, when we were the only ISAF aircraft flying in Kandahar Province. The bigger and fancier UAVs could not operate as low as we could, and could not see through cloud layers that we flew under. The same was generally true of manned aircraft. Weather conditions sometimes precluded helicopter operations as well, but we would be up.

Regardless of "correct terminology" people have latched onto the word drones and I suspect the name is going to stick for these small systems just like many trademark names now represent all products in that class. Plus the tech is likely going to outpace both the vocabulary and regulations. Most of the small ones available for civilian purchase come with some sort of pre-flight programming and with inflight input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdlmoLAbbiQ

I say start a Reserves UAV unit, bring in bright kids, give them a budget and let them experiment and then incorporate the best ideas into the various branches.

Dragging this thread back a bit did anyone note that KC-390 just had it's first flight? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxRDSB7rPnQ

   

 

[Loachman]

I say start a Reserves UAV unit, bring in bright kids, give them a budget and let them experiment and then incorporate the best ideas into the various branches.

Can we do this with weapons training as well?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually the firearms training one can get outside puts much of the army stuff to shame, although to be fair the training has improved vastly since my day.

This field is so dynamic and the tech is evolving so fast, having a group of young smart kids finding ways to experiment and incorporate it into the various parts of the services that have not even considered it is likely the best and cheapest way. What you need is the more mature and thoughtful leaders picking the best ideas out of the mix to move forward on. I was on a tasking supporting some of the DRES stuff in Suffield back in the 80's using RPV for supporting arty, very interesting to see us involved back then and one of my MWO was involved with the Drone stuff in the 60's

 

[dimsum]

Regardless of "correct terminology" people have latched onto the word drones and I suspect the name is going to stick for these small systems just like many trademark names now represent all products in that class. Plus the tech is likely going to outpace both the vocabulary and regulations. Most of the small ones available for civilian purchase come with some sort of pre-flight programming and with inflight input.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdlmoLAbbiQ

I say start a Reserves UAV unit, bring in bright kids, give them a budget and let them experiment and then incorporate the best ideas into the various branches.

I could see that for something Scan Eagle sized or smaller (AKA the same thing that 4AD uses right now), operating at lower altitudes and speeds.  But, MALE/HALE (Reaper/Global Hawk) are fully in the realm of Remotely Piloted Aircraft Systems (RPAS - yet another acronym for these things) and the training and quals required are more suited to aircrew, if for nothing else than the fact that aside from not having their crews in the airplane itself, the thing flies at altitudes and speeds just like every other airplane. 

Give it a decade or less, and I'll bet you $ that they will be incorporated into the world's ATC systems and flight paths, where it'll share the same chunk of airspace with airliners and the like.  I'd want something that big and that fast to be crewed by folks that have a similar background/training as their manned peers.

Mods, can we break this off into another topic?

 

[ringo]

Any opinions on CAF procurement of KC-390 for FWSAR role?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Prototype just flew last month.  Not much info on how it will perform down low and slow. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

let competitors bring the aircraft to Comox, have them carry out various training exercises starting simple to more complex and more mountain terrain, start with their pilots flying and ours running the exercises and see how the aircraft perform, if they can do the essential task at least as well as the Buff, then they can enter the final phrase of the competition which will be based on costs, supply. politics.

 

[GK .Dundas]

let competitors bring the aircraft to Comox, have them carry out various training exercises starting simple to more complex and more mountain terrain, start with their pilots flying and ours running the exercises and see how the aircraft perform, if they can do the essential task at least as well as the Buff, then they can enter the final phrase of the competition which will be based on costs, supply. politics.

  If It happens it will undoubtedly be viewed as proof of the apocalypse and the end times .

 

[MilEME09]

  If It happens it will undoubtedly be viewed as proof of the apocalypse and the end times .

next youll tell me it takes less then 20 minutes to log into the DAWN

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have a dream  8)

IT and IM system that work for the user

Logical and on time procurement systems

stable, sustainable and suitable defence budget

Long term positive role for Reserves

Mortars and Howitzers where they belong

SAR aircraft younger than their crews (threaddrift prevention device)

 

[Kirkhill]

I have a dream  8)

IT and IM system that work for the user

Logical and on time procurement systems

stable, sustainable and suitable defence budget

Long term positive role for Reserves employees

Mortars and Howitzers where they belong

SAR aircraft younger than their crews (threaddrift prevention device)

OK Martin Luther....

Modified your dream to a more generally applicable version.

Most of your identified problem area are not unique to the military or even government service.  They appear to be endemic in the modern work place.

What I wouldn't give for a decent secretary rather than a PDA and a server.

 

[Blackadder1916]

What I wouldn't give for a decent secretary rather than a PDA and a server.

But you must consider the times.  With a PDA and a server, one can surreptitiously look at porn - with a secretary, similar actions result in a lawsuit.

 

[Kirkhill]

But you must consider the times.  With a PDA and a server, one can surreptitiously look at porn - with a secretary, similar actions result in a lawsuit.

:rofl: :cheers:

Not that I would be ever so tempted  ;D  I am that bothered that I wouldn't mind if she had hairy legs, a pot belly and one eye.

 

[Blackadder1916]

:rofl: :cheers:

Not that I would be ever so tempted  ;D  I am that bothered that I wouldn't mind if she had hairy legs, a pot belly and one eye.

Ok, whatever turns your crank.

 

[Kirkhill]

Oooooh. Kinky!

 

[Spencer100]

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2015/03/31/tender-call-finally-issued-in-decade-long-plan-to-replace-military-search-planes/#.VRrZr2cg-Ul

Look like the tender is going out.

 

[The Bread Guy]

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2015/03/31/tender-call-finally-issued-in-decade-long-plan-to-replace-military-search-planes/#.VRrZr2cg-Ul

Look like the tender is going out.

More from the public tender page:

NOTICE - Distribution of the Request for Proposal (RFP) to the FWSAR Source List

OBJECTIVE
The Department of National Defence (DND) has a requirement to replace the existing Fixed-Wing Search and Rescue fleet of CC115 (Buffalo) and CC130H (Hercules) aircraft. The intent of the Department of National Defence (DND) is to procure a fleet of new sensor-equipped aircraft, including long-term In-service Support (ISS) for a period up to 20 years, in order to provide an effective response to SAR incidents anywhere  in the Canadian Area of Responsibility, and to support the National Search and Rescue Program.

AVAILABLE ON REQUEST
The FWSAR Secretariat has approved the Request for Proposal (RFP) publication to the FWSAR Source List. This RFP is available on request only, and will be distributed to industry suppliers or subcontractors whom request it. In accordance with standard practices for RFP's containing high volumes of documentation, the RFP is only available in DVD format. A copy of the FWSAR RFP will be provided by the FWSAR Secretariat upon request to the following e-mail address:  ARSVF.FWSAR@tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca.  Requesters must indicate the complete mailing address and contact name, in order for the documentation to be mailed via Canada Post or alternatively, indicate that their preference is to make arrangements to pick up a copy during business hours at the Louis St-Laurent Building, located at 555Blvd de la Carrière, Gatineau (Québec) J8Y 6V7.

STATEMENT OF CAPABILITIES
It is important to note that only companies appearing on the FWSAR Source List will be permitted to submit proposals. To be added to the FWSAR Source List, a company or consortium must have an aircraft product, or be capable of proposing a solution that could meet the conditions of the FWSAR RFP.  The FWSAR Source List form is a document that was previously released to Industry in December of 2013, and is available to prospective new FWSAR bidders by requesting it from the FWSAR Secretariat at the following email address:  ARSVF.FWSAR@tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca.  Any duly signed new submission of the FWSAR Source List form must be accompanied by a Statement of Capabilities. The FWSAR Secretariat will make the final decision on the validity of any requests, and of any submitted Statement of Capability ....