FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Sam69]

I'm registered to go and hope to have time tomorrow or Friday. If I see anything of interest or relevance I'll report it here.

Sam

 

[Sam69]

Sorry to say, I couldn't spare the time to cross the street and go to CANSEC so I can't give you any update on what the FWSAR competitors were peddling at their booths.

Maybe someone else got a chance to tour the show and can provide their impressions.

Sam

 

[COBRA-6]

I made it, saw the C-27J booth, didn't see the CASA... but then again being an infantry officer, I was more interested in the SIMUNITION (belt-fed simunition is gonna hurt!) and EOTech booths, so I could missed it. In the brochure the C-27J folks were giving out they had a direct comparison of the two aircraft in a bunch of areas (range, payload, performance, dimension, etc) and the C-27 was superior in every field...

 

[onewingwonder]

The only superiority CASA/EADS has in this competition is marketing, including the "write your MP" tactic. :rage:

 

[a_majoor]

It is my understanding that, despite the very impressive technical advances of the Dynavert, the reality was that it had virtually no internal cargo capacity (the area behind the pilots  largely occupied by the mechanical mixing and wing tilt mechanicals) and therefore generated little military nor commercial interest. As well, limitations in material technologies at the time would have made it very difficult to scale the aircraft up.

Sam

I have a picture in a copy of the ADTB showing at least 17 infantrymen double timing on or off a Dynavert. While this may have been a staged photograph (packing the troops inside like a "clown car", I think this was supposed to be a demonstration of what the plane could do.

The Dynavert also had one huge advantage the V-22 does not: it could fix the wings in the "down" position and take off and land like an ordinary aircraft. This greatly increased the range, and took a lot of stress off the system. A modern version of the Dynavert would have a much more refined wing tilt mechanism, and material science has come a long way since the 1970s.

Maybe SB, as the arch historian, would like to start a thread on this plane?

 

[jmacleod]

HMCS Bras D'or failed because in it's role in ASW it was extremely noisy at sea - interesting point
for Naval Airmen - the Rolls-Royce Griffon engines in the decommissioned vessel were given to
the Canadian Warplane Heritage Foundation (CWHF) Mount Hope, ON, for installation in the
Supermarine "Seafire" restoration and the Supermarine "Firefly" upgrade. Engines were shipped
to Hamilton via an Canadian Navy destroyer of the period 1988-1990, thanks to the efforts of LGen Larry
Ashley former BC, 12 Wing (later CAS) and Chief of Naval Ops, Halifax NS. Regards, MacLeod

Modified to reflect that there is no RCN any longer.

 

[Blue Max]

Interesting info on the CL-84 Dynavert. It sure sounds to me like Canada could not see the potential to carry on with the development of a revolutionary design, hence it disappeared from Canadian aviation only to reapear as the Osprey V-22.

Dare I say this sounds like another Canadian ARROW story :

 

[kj_gully]

It seems to me this thread has gone off the tracks, I was hoping with the new defence policy review that talk would refocus contributors on reality, and stop waxing nostalgic for the optimistic 60's when Canada was spending big money on R&D. Look, I want a plane before I retire, which will be in like 10 more years. The Dynavert does not exist. The osprey (V-22?) does not exist, at least not in the scale we need. Apparently the USCG is looking at a smaller executive version which may be viable in about 10 more years.It is too little, and way too complicated for our Airforce to use and maintain, and probably even scarier to fly in than the Cormorant. Canada has left the door open for a CASA replacement for FWSAR and twin Otter fleet, by considering  allocating more SAR resources to the North. I am looking forward with mixed emotion to the opportunity to be posted to Resolute for a couple years. I hope that you learn thru this thread, that there is no clear-cut perfect replacement for our Sar plane. Being posted to  Comox, home of the Tatonka, I look forward to a pressurized cabin someday, and a palletized cargo system to reduce time consuming gear reconfigs. Like I said before, once onscene, I want to be able to stand up to do my work, instead of hunched over like a dog humping a football,or worse, crawling like a Buff pilot after a mess dinner ;D. It will be great to talk to a doctor from anywhere in Canada, using satelitte comms. Heck, it will be great to talk to anyone down in the hills on radios that aren't tube and resistors, or string and soup cans. I don't think the C27 is a perfect plane for SAR in Canada, but we never get perfect, anyway. It is going to come to us as a steel cylinder, and will take another decade to properly outfit, like always. But I think it will look great on the Ramp in Comox, or Churhill, or Alert painted yellow, and just as good painted Camo in Kabul.

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

The only superiority CASA/EADS has in this competition is marketing, including the "write your MP" tactic. :rage:

Do they really say to write to my MP...  :threat:  That is just wrong.. :skull: . Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements...

 

[sandhurst91]

"Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements"? ? ? ?

???? (huh?) ????

I may not win much support here - and am willing to be convinced differently... however, it is ultimately the Canadian taxpayers' money that is being spent, no?... if DND were run like a business, it would be up to DND bureaucrats et al to recommend the most appropriate options for maintaining a level of service... and then the CEO/Board - as representatives of "shareholders" (taxpayers) to make the final decision - hopefully an informed one. I would expect my political representative to ask tough questions of DND and to ensure they have all the information they need to approve such a massive expenditure... am I wrong?

update from the various contenders:

EADS CASA C-295 to demonstrate Search and Rescue strengths on Canadian tour (www.c-295.ca)

EADS CASA establishes permanent presence in Canada to pursue Canadian military air transport contracts (www.c-295.ca)

Global Military Aircraft Systems' C-27J Spartan Takes Flight In DC Area (www.c-27j.ca)

 

[Inch]

sandhurst, it's not about asking tough questions, it's about politicians getting their dirty hands into the process and railroading us into getting a substandard piece of kit because it benefits a government friendly company. DND contracts should not be used to prop of failing companies, Bombardier's Iltis ring a bell? Or how about the LSVW? I'm sure people could name many more.

 

[Slim]

The Govt. has proven over and over again that they cannot be trusted whare the procurement of military equipement is concerned. They have, over and over again, turned the wholoe process into a political agenda of rewarding federal defense contracts to whatever company can kiss their political asses the best...With kickbacks I'm sure (although I have no proof...I'll let Gomery find it for me! :)

The CF should be able to say what it needs and make a list of what equipment will do the job the best and how much of it we need to do the job properly. Then, if they want to build it here it has to be built to EXACT SPECIFICATIONS (see the Iltis!) on time and within the approved (military approved) standard, and with complete DND oversite!

Slim

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Wasn't the Griffon and untendered project as well. Needed but no competetion just picked out.?

 

[jmacleod]

DND CF want the C27J "Spartan" - do not see any political implications here, with either aircraft.
Why would one need a FE on the C27J? - just asking. Finding the money for this Project is the
big question in our nation's capital.  Griffon purchase was a political decision, but then, so was
the F-18A and the F-104 - been around the aerospace trade for many,many years; never saw
anything as complex as the current MHP. MacLeod

 

[kj_gully]

In my experience, the FE is often the most important person on an aircraft. He can calmly go thru a checklist to ensure the smell of smoke the crew is anxious about really is the crew fan and not the flare box, can fix the port engine ignitor so we don't have to spend the night in Lillooet, makes a damn fine cup of coffee, is an awesome spotter, won't leave me without dropping my B-25 kit and the SAR tent, stays back to do his AB checks and make sure we get gassed up while the rest of the crew orders lunch. The Navigator and Loadmaster on the other hand......not so much. Fixed wing pilots think they can't make do without a Navigator, but my Rotary wing crewmates get along just fine without them.

 

[ROTP Applicant]

Fixed wing pilots think they can't make do without a Navigator.

From what I have heard, ANAVs' responsibilities have been drastically reduced, and that all that fixed wing pilots need is a GPS instead of a navigator.

 

[onewingwonder]

Until the GPS packs it in. It is far from the be all and end all.

For RW SAR the RAF operated for years with either a Nav or AEOp in the left-hand seat. Support helicopters the same, Chinook, Puma. Dumping important crew positions such as FE for "budgetary" reasons is ridiculous. Safety should be paramount. The RAF are finding this to be true with the C-130J. Two pilots, two loadmasters. The LMs are now somewhat overtasked as one is normally in the cockpit helping with nav, radios, etc.

 

[Zoomie]

Finding the money for this Project is the big question in our nation's capital.  

We already have $1.4 Billion sitting in the proverbial bank account, collecting interest.  This was set aside in last year's budget.

 

[sandhurst91]

Some good close-up snaps of the C-295 in Victoria - inside and out - from their Canadian tour web site (www.c-295.ca)...
I'm posting one that I had to compress... there's others... all high-res...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

From what I have heard, ANAVs' responsibilities have been drastically reduced, and that all that fixed wing pilots need is a GPS instead of a navigator.

You heard wrong, sonny.

I may not do alot of actual "enroute navigation" anymore, thanks to GPS, but I do a fair bit of "tactical navigation" .  I am also up to my eyeballs in tactics and radios and doing what I actually get paid to do- coordinate operations. 

Any moron can fly a plane from point A to point B on air routes unaided.  It is when you get down in a tight mountain valley doing a SAR that a Nav (and an FE and Loadies and Sar techs) becomes very useful as you try and:

A- find what you are looking for.

B- avoid hitting a mountain while doing so.

It is a team effort in an aircraft.  No one trade can do it all alone.  You may do well to remember that as you progress thru your training.

Cheers