FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[mariomike]

Toronto should stop being cheap lefty bastards and buy a police helicopter.

Hoists on the ORNGE helicopters already flying in and out of city hospitals is the rumour we sometimes hear.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Excellent point.

It seems the public (and the media) don't understand that there are three different lead providers of search and rescue services in Canada, depending on the situation: maritime (Coast Guard); ground (local police) and air (CF).  The CF also assists CCG for maritime SAR, but DFO/CCG has lead for maritime SAR, including the Great Lakes. 

National Search and Rescue Secretariat - Annex A to National SAR Program: Roles and Responsibilities for Search and Rescue Program

Often when things don't go smoothly in a maritime or ground SAR situation, it seems that the CF gets blamed for failing to respond appropriately...even if it is a secondary responder and has to reposition airborne SAR assets away from primary SAR responsibilities.


Regards
G2G

Sometimes they don't get credit when things go right either, "large yellow Coast Guard helicopter rescues people from burning boat" I have seen sevral times in the local paper.

Frankly I think we are all missing the boat when it comes to a proper SAR aircraft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIcltyMwJRg  :stirpot:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hoists on the ORNGE helicopters already flying in and out of city hospitals is the rumour we sometimes hear.

At least while ORNGE is still flying.....

 

[Zoomie]

Ornge will not be in a position to facilitate rescues - as that is not their contracted job.  They also don't carry any sort of rescue specialist.  They simply transport victims from one locale to another (hopefully a hospital).

Keep the yellow CH-146s in YTR - move the heavy hitters to North Bay - FWSAR and RWSAR (Cormorant).  A small detachment of RWSAR at YTR won't be hard to maintain - especially with the current infrastructure already in place there.

 

[Good2Golf]

Hoists on the ORNGE helicopters already flying in and out of city hospitals is the rumour we sometimes hear.

So you guys in EMS will start doing ground SAR too, now?  ???

As Zoomie said, Ornge is just an ambulance with rotors instead of wheels.


Regards
G2G

 

[YZT580]

"Frankly I think we are all missing the boat when it comes to a proper SAR aircraft."  Don't speak too loudly or Bombardier will be proposing the CL415.  Do the hangars for the G64s still exist in Trenton?  Could put them back in use and have 415s for the Great Lakes.  Be just like the 60s and with 415s at only 26 million each......

 

[Zoomie]

Don't speak too loudly or Bombardier will be proposing the CL415. 

If we were to diversify the fleet and have fixed niche roles for them - I would be all over that idea.  CL415's for the Great Lakes, NWT, West Coast, etc.  Now that is forward thinking...  Short range, amphib - put some skis on it and we have a winner for the 500nm SAR solution.  Still need long range stuff for the far away stuff.

 

[mariomike]

So you guys in EMS will start doing ground SAR too, now?  ???

T-EMS does HU-SAR.
Other than watching the inter-agency bun fights for years, I have no dog in the surf and turf wars which are legendary in this city. Especially now that I am retired. I still prefer to believe we are all on the same team.
As far as the rumour of hoists ever being installed in ORNGE helicopters goes, some of it I have read in this thread,
"Honestly the feeling in the RWSAR community is that we will eventually all be civies. Take Ontario for example.  Companies such as ORNGE helicopters regularly scoop the missions. Why? because they are spread through out Ontario...they beat Hercs and Griffons to scenes because of where their bases are located. If ORNGE ever installs hoists and trains pilots to fly NVGs, we are out of a job....or more likely into a civy job."
Reply #922 on: September 30, 2011, 23:52:55

"The civilian companies are slowly expanding on their own and I believe will take over the SAR scene one day. STARS in Alberta is another example. ...rumour has it they have recently installed hoists on their helo's...
..RUMOUR":
Reply #926 on: October 01, 2011, 02:05:38

Regards
mm

 

[YZT580]

Whilst it may be true that southern Ontario and central Alberta can manage their own SAR with the resources those provinces have, there will, at least for the foreseeable future, be a requirement for the RCAF to manage the rest of the area: including offshore.  Noone but the military is going to send an aircraft out looking for a distressed ship in a gale.  Insurance rates would be prohibitive.  So your folks are stuck with it and why not, there is nothing wrong with your job performance that is for sure.

 

[Good2Golf]

I was referring to Ground SAR in any region of Canada, but the development of HUSAR capability in major city centers, that can deploy regionally, provincially and nationally is an excellent development.

Re: helos and SAR -- Poster in #922 was hypothesizing WHAT IF Ornge ever added hoists, but has not provided proof that they are outfitting their AW139s with hoists.  He also has not yet provided the requested specific example where an Ornge helicopter was called by JRCC to conduct primary National RWSAR in place of CF RWSAR assets - his example was of involvement of an Ornge aircraft conducting provinicially-mandated Heli MEDEVAC that dutied out due to lack of NVGs.

As well, his post in #926 was exactly what he stated, rumour.


Many of us continue to wait for an example where a non-CF helicopter was tasked by JRCC to conduct a National SAR mandated RWSAR mission in accordance with the National SAR Support Plan.

The only civilian helicopter I know of to be fitted with a hoist to conduct Company/Industry-specific RWSAR specific to their region of operation is Cougar in support of Hibernia for company traffic.  If there was anywhere a JRCC would request non-CF RWSAR assistance, if would be off the East Coast, where JRCC Halifax might contact Cougar to help out (since they have both hoists and SAR technicians) were CF RWSAR assets not to be in the immediate area.


Regards
G2G

 

[kj_gully]

this is the FWSAR thread....

 

[Good2Golf]

this is the FWSAR thread....

Yeah!  :nod:

How did choppers got into this thread, anyway?  ???

slow stable platform- like say a Cormorant?

maybe more Chinooks... they would have to be yellow tho  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

Here we go, back on topic. Big news on the FWSAR front...They are opening a "project office".  :

The Canadian Press

Date: Wednesday Mar. 21, 2012 6:16 AM ET

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120321/search-and-rescue-plane-purchase-120321/#ixzz1pl0RksTa

There's been staff working on this for quite some time - this is just formalizing it and probably assigning more full-time personnel to it.

 

[kj_gully]

OK Guilty. I hope that we can get a deal from our neighbours, but hopefully they still conduct a competition. Price is after all only one factor, way cheaper but not appropriate is worse than getting nothing, because we are stuck with it for a looooong time. I have been woo'd by stats, but they are just figures... if they can't fly in the cold, or can't land in austere arctic airstrips, it is not too useful...

 

[Good2Golf]

As a general rule-of-thumb, in-service support costs are about three times more than conventional acquisition costs, so it's important to understand clearly what the cost would be to maintain aircraft that may have been procured at a discount.

Regards
G2G

 

[dapaterson]

As a general rule-of-thumb, in-service support costs are about three times more than conventional acquisition costs, so it's important to understand clearly what the cost would be to maintain aircraft submarines that may have been procured at a discount.

Regards
G2G

Yours is a multi-purpose comment, easily reused.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Yours is a multi-purpose comment, easily reused.

Yep, agreed ...

 

[Privateer]

CBC article: "Ornge overspending slammed by Ontario auditor general
Province operated air ambulance service like a 'mini-conglomerate"

includes:

The long-awaited report by Jim McCarter was released Wednesday, and says the Health Ministry did little to oversee the $700 million it handed to Ornge over the past five years.

Orgne also borrowed almost $300 million to buy more airplanes and helicopters than it needed. and used taxpayer dollars to repay the debt, McCarter found.

Since the creation of Ornge in 2006, taxpayer funding of the air ambulance service shot up 20 per cent while the number of patients transported dropped six per cent, McCarter found.

...

The auditor also found Ornge bought three more helicopters and four more airplanes than its own analysis showed it needed and planned to allow the private companies to use them.

The agency is selling some of those used helicopters it bought with the money at a loss.

...

McCarter said he has not been given access to the paper trail from all the Ornge spinoff companies, meaning he has not been allowed to review details of a $5-million payment from an Italian helicopter maker.

That payment is now the subject a criminal probe by the Ontario Provincial Police.

Among McCarter's other findings:

    The number of patients Ornge carried fell while its budget increased.
    A land-based ambulance service added by Ornge carried only 15 per cent of the number of passengers projected at a per-patient cost that was almost as high as air transfers.
    The way Ornge reports its response times made it difficult to tell how well it was serving patients.
    Frequent problems with how Ornge aircraft was dispatched.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/21/toronto-matthews-ornge.html

 

[The Bread Guy]

The federal cabinet is expected give approval this week to open a project office to buy new fixed-wing search and rescue planes, according to senior federal officials.

It is the first step in getting the stalled, nearly decade-old program to replace C-115 Buffalos and older model C-130-H transport aircraft.

The $3.1 billion replacement plan has been mired in controversy and bureaucratic in-fighting almost since it was announced by the Martin government — obstacles that Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government has yet to overcome.

Potential bidders were informed a couple of weeks ago that a formal tender call is not expected until next year and there will be more industry consultation.

Part of the delay has involved accusations that the air force had rigged initial specifications to favour one aircraft — the C-27-J Spartan, built by the Italian company Alenia.

The U.S. Air Force recently announced it intended to sell its fleet of Spartan transports, both existing and soon-to-be-delivered.

It's part of a cost-cutting move, but it has yet to receive Congressional approval.

Senior defence officials say they intend to ask Washington how much it wants for the planes, but took pains to emphasize that there will be an open competition ....

The Canadian Press, 21 Mar 12

 

[The Bread Guy]

Question # 1:
Must an Aircraft Provider be an OEM?

Clarification # 1:
A single point of accountability (SPA) is a requirement for this project in which the SPA or prime contractor will be responsible for providing the aircraft fleet and In-Service Support.  Currently, the type of aircraft provider ( i.e. OEM, ISS integrator, any other party) has not been determined, as it will be a point of discussion with industry.