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From: Should Canada adopt the LAV III as its sole armoured vehicle?

RG,

No no..I agree no flame war please. 

And GW.. I'm not calling you out.. ;)  right out of it? right in it I'm afraid..

I fully understand the undertaking, I'm a true realist. I'm not here waving a banner saying we can have it that way.  But as organization, is anyone looking into the future to address the growing skills gap?? Or are we going to tip toe around it hoping not to offend each other?  I would really like to continue a discussion on our trade. Is it possible? There just seems to be resounding silence,a belief that all is well, or thats the way it is so be it? I think maybe thats what I'm having issue with.

But the other point of my post was that these are the cards we were dealt with and we all had a part to play in it.
 
I'd like to see the Reserve armoured units specialize for a while on convoy operations, which would really just be focusing on one of the existing tasks.  Train on LUVWs and Bisons and provide formed Convoy Escort Troops for overseas duty.  I think its relevant and achievable at this time.  Ideally they'd also have RG-31s to train on in Canada, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
 
We have covered the problem of the widening gap of skill sets between the Reg and Reserve Armour soldiers and as many others have said before, the main problem is money.  

It is important that the Reserve Armour Units maintain their skills of Mud Recce.  I would hate to see them relegated to solely doing Convoy Escort taskings, but that is one skill they must maintain.  Tactics is the important thing that they must maintain, as Tactics will remain the same, with minor changes/adaptations to the vehicle you will be in.   Weapons training must be maintained, as one will have to be proficient with a C6 or C9 if one is to become a CC in a Bison, or whatever vehicle one may command.  All the Armour Recce skills must be maintained to keep the Reserves viable.

Are there solutions to the problem right now.  Not really.  Fiscal cuts and restraints have caused the Regular Armour Units to loose many of their capabilities and much of their equipment, so even they are having problems keeping skills.  That makes it next to impossible to pass on those skills to the Reserves.  It also makes a solution of one or two year Class B or Class C Call Outs impractical at this time, as there would still not be the equipment, nor the Instructors/Courses to train the Reservists before training their own Reg soldiers.

The Regs would like to have the equipment to keep their skill sets up to par.  Money to purchase new tanks, more Coyotes, new Cbt Vehicles, etc. should also include the Reserves, or the gap between the two will only widen more.  Until such time skill sets must be maintained as best they can.

By maintaining their Recce skills, tactics, and Wpns skills they could, as Command-Sense-Act 105 said, still be employed as Commanders of Bison Ambs or various other variants.  Crew Commander skills will be a skill set that can be transferred from one vehicle platform to another, knowing the capabilities of the new vehicle.   However, we have heard from Reservists that they don't want these jobs as they consider them "Admin jobs" and not "real Recce" jobs.  They cry that they can't go and do Recce.   Unfortunately, we have found that we can no longer use the Iltis and GWagen without expecting casualties.  We have only so many RG31's and they are spoken for.  It leaves very few opportunities for an Armour Reservist to be employed in an actual Recce Role.

Back to money.  There are some good solutions that have been brought out in the discussions in this and other topics, but they are all stopped dead in their tracks due to the lack of funding from Ottawa.  That lack of funding is affecting the Armour Corps right across the board, both Reg and Reserve, and causing skill sets to fade or be lost.  We will know how bad, the day we start doing like they did in our early history when they used boxes to simulate armour cars and tanks.  But remember, if you know the tactics and your weapons, it will not matter what vehicle you are in, you will still have the majority of the important skill sets to do the job.  Skill sets that you can easily adapt to a new vehicle.

It is a serious problem, and one that has been identified.  Will we get anything under the tree for Christmas?  Probably not.
 
Greetings..
And..enough already.
The Regular Force Armoured Corps does not want or need Res Force aumentees for deployments.
If the Corps needed Reservists to be deployable they would figure out how to align the training to allow for the necessary skills to be held in the Reserves. If the Corps wanted the Reserves to be trained on the same equipment as the Reg Force they would come up with a way to do it.
It is quite evident that they have never intended to even try (not since the cougar was dropped from the Reg Force units).
We might as well accept it.
Even the Infantry doesn't want the Res Force Armour soldiers. When a Task Force needs G-Wagen crews they ask to have the Infantry Reservists trained instead of using already trained black hats.
Maybe this is why we lose so many black hat reservists to the Reg Force..in mocs other than Armour. Air Force, Navy, Infantry, Veh Tech, anything but Armour. I believe these soldiers just might be fed up. But then again, what the hell do I know.

I needed that.
 
Skydiver.... any chance you can provide a little bit of info on your profile so we can get a better idea of who and what you are?
 
Geo..
Done.
Sorry about that. I re-registered earlier this year after a computer glitch refused my log-in. I  should have built more info in at that time. I have actually been on this list for a number of years but I haven't been ranting lately..too busy.

Doog
 
We have covered the problem of the widening gap of skill sets between the Reg and Reserve Armour soldiers and as many others have said before, the main problem is money.

Yes been there done that.  But inviting new ideas/solutions should always be open... And it is not like the armour thread has had the resounding activity of other trade threads here.  I don't count the bi weekly posts on vehicle wish lists.

The days of intermixing with units and comparing notes have been long gone.  With the BDE format, my unit became part of Ottawa, now being in Oshawa makes me no closer to the Toronto District of old and has provided even less opportunity to cross paths with other black hatters.  We are the only armour component and I liken it to being in a bubble.  Forgive me, but I'm just trying to come up for fresh air.

we have heard from Reservists that they don't want these jobs as they consider them "Admin jobs" and not "real Recce" jobs.  They cry that they can't go and do Recce.

Well not from me, I would argue that the pers that believe that are uneducated and ill-informed.  Now on flip side of that, I've heard this with being at "the gate"  though.  Are you sure that wasn't the context of that statement?

I don't care what vehicle I have.  What I care about is the bigger picture and how that affects me preparing/training soldiers.

You are right the ol' mighty dollar is the number one barrier.  But we had the funds to retro the Cougar and to buy fancy Sim boxes only to sink them.  So maybe the argument is that we have the money but its not properly managed??  or  is it as simple as acknowledging a change in Mission Statement as CSA-105 has put forth?.

so this grasshopper asks " Can the leopard change its spots??"


 
skydiver said:
The Regular Force Armoured Corps does not want or need Res Force aumentees for deployments.
If the Corps needed Reservists to be deployable they would figure out how to align the training to allow for the necessary skills to be held in the Reserves. If the Corps wanted the Reserves to be trained on the same equipment as the Reg Force they would come up with a way to do it.
It is quite evident that they have never intended to even try (not since the cougar was dropped from the Reg Force units).

Guess your not as much in the loop as you like to think. You obviously haven't heard about the complete formed Troop of Armoured Reservist that are scheduled to be slotted into each roto. It's a start. I had quit a little chat with the Director of Armour at dinner two weeks ago. As to the being the official spokesman for the Corp, Reg and Reserve, I'll listen to him before I listen to you. I'm sure his info is somewhat more current and unbiased.
 
I know that in Ontario the RCD made a concerted effort circa 2000 to train reservists on Coyote.  There was actually resistance from some Reserve units on the grounds that they were afraid their people would then get poached.  Others may have seen it as a waste of money (a reasonable argument since the reserve unit CO had to pay for the candidates wages).

Coyote training for the reserves is indeed problematic due to the numbers of vehicle available.  I think we could get a certain number put through Coyote PCF courses, but keeping those skills up would be the problem.  In my last year at the Regt I think we would have liked to have a had a pool of Coyote-qualified reservists to draw on.  On one Roto in particular the 10 percent pool was taken up before deployment actually started, and replacements had to be drawn from the next Sqn in line.  I think, therefore, that the obstacles are of a practical nature (not enough vehicles to train on) as opposed to not wanting reservists.

Turing to the realm of the possible, convoy escort may not sound glamorous, but it a role (or task) with a good fit to the skill sets of reserve armoured soldiers.  The skills of driving, comms, machineguns and mounted tactical movement are all bread and butter stuff for armoured soldiers.  I see absolutely no reason why reserve armour soldiers could not provide that task, and its a much easier "sell" than trying to provide a "light recce" troop.  

Cheers,

2B
 
I guess my attempt at ..Satire..was a bit too much.

But if it stimulated any thought I guess that would be a good thing.

As for being out of the loop.. well, yeah, the last Corps conference I attended was two years ago and and I am not on the extreme adults mailing list. I do however remember a couple of things that were talked about/decided on at the working group that I was in and they have not yet come to be. The Army/CF/Bean Counters trump the Corps (any Corps) every time.

As for a troop of Armour Reserves being slotted into upcoming rotos..great. Do you mean within the Recce Sqn or as some other org within the Battle Group?

I know that there is one in the Van Doo BG roto next summer (mounted D and S tp). There are soldiers from this area going along.

I also know that this was suggested for the next (TF 1-07) BG but the idea didn't fly. I think a lot of it has to do with the particular Area HQ and the Battle Group if it  (the employment) is outside the Recce Sqn org.

What equipment will they be using? If it is Coyote or RG31 then that goes with what I said earlier doesn't it? If the Reg Force wants them they will shit or knit the equipment and the trg $$ and time. If they don't come up with the stuff then obviously the requirment can't be that important. I am not offering any "I know more than the Corps" stuff here. I am just stating what I think is a reality..if you want something come up with a plan and the $$. That is all.

Later
 
Recceguy:  D Armd is definitely current on Armd issues, but I'd hope he's very biased - biased towards the Corps, that is.  He has been the driving force behind the deployment of formed Reserve Recce tps on operations.  Due to the current Reserve platform, there are some concerns about which theatre(s) such a tp may be appropriate for employment in, but it is definitely an issue he aggressively promotes at the Army's highest levels.

But black hats should not consider themselves as without opportunities for deployment.  Today, just under 12% of Army Reservists on Class C service are members of the Corps; that's slightly higher than their proportion of the Army Reserve as a whole.  Dramatic increases in the number of Armd soldiers deploying might place strains on leadership ranks - units cannot regenerate if all their leaders are unavailable.  We have to be careful not to push past the breaking point, demanding so much of units that they can't sustain themselves.

 
Sounds like you have a very situation as we do in Australia. In order to fill seats for o/s deployment, reg units poach numbers from reserves. And it works well. There just isn't a problem re-training reservists on a new vehicle as long as the 'poaching' unit is willing to put in the training, and since it's in their own interests, that's exactly what they do. As you say, short of WWIII, the odds of deploying as a reserve armoured unit are near zero, and we need to train accordingly.
 
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