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Freeman on the Land?

Rocky Mountains said:
In case anyone is confused, I am not talking about grey haired grannies who ride bikes. 

My point was that having the justice system spend a minute worrying about Freemen on the Land until they actually do something or profess violence could easily be a waste of resources as per my example.

There have already been plenty of incidents where "freemen" have shown a disposition towards violent behaviour when dealing with law enforcement.  Most haven't made the news, but youtube is full of examples.
 
Hatchet Man said:
There have already been plenty of incidents where "freemen" have shown a disposition towards violent behaviour when dealing with law enforcement.  Most haven't made the news, but youtube is full of examples.

Yup. And there's hazard in viewing FOTL monolithically and separate from anything else. Really it's just a categorization of the farthest end of the spectrum of antigovernment/antiauthoritarian views. Any LEO deals with people who have this viewpoint to some extent or another regularly. On the one end of the spectrum it's as mild as the "don't you have real criminals to catch?" when enforcing traffic, liquor or drug laws, and it carries on up the chain through those with less and less respect for law (criminal and otherwise) and authority, all the way to the extreme of those who don't recognize the government at all. Plot that 'respect for authority' against 'propensity for violence' and you'll easily see where most of the common kinds of whackos fall...
 
Funny how these people don't have any issue referring to the institutional constructs of the Nation, such as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, to protect their "rights" to their own "freedom"...  ::)  By their own logic, the CoR&F does not apply to their situation.
 
Joke's on them when they get pulled over for speeding, busted for no license/registration, and CPIC checks come back that they have a warrant out for failure to attend court.
 
Brihard said:
Yup. And there's hazard in viewing FOTL monolithically and separate from anything else. Really it's just a categorization of the farthest end of the spectrum of antigovernment/antiauthoritarian views. Any LEO deals with people who have this viewpoint to some extent or another regularly. On the one end of the spectrum it's as mild as the "don't you have real criminals to catch?" when enforcing traffic, liquor or drug laws, and it carries on up the chain through those with less and less respect for law (criminal and otherwise) and authority, all the way to the extreme of those who don't recognize the government at all. Plot that 'respect for authority' against 'propensity for violence' and you'll easily see where most of the common kinds of whackos fall...

Absolutely.  I don't think the "freeman" movement is an organized entity in any sort (that would seem to run counter to their beliefs at any rate).  But the "freemen"  do seem to follow the same "script" as it were when dealing with LE (ie, your aren't in uniform unless you have your business card, my name isn't the name on my license, and all that other pseudo-legal nonsense), which does make them a different sort of beast than the, repeat offender who just plain hates the cops.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Absolutely.  I don't think the "freeman" movement is an organized entity in any sort (that would seem to run counter to their beliefs at any rate).  But the "freemen"  do seem to follow the same "script" as it were when dealing with LE (ie, your aren't in uniform unless you have your business card, my name isn't the name on my license, and all that other pseudo-legal nonsense), which does make them a different sort of beast than the, repeat offender who just plain hates the cops.

They can tell it to the tow company when it comes time to get their car released for driving unregistered and the vehicle is only to be released to the registered owner...
 
So much retard in these guys.
 
The courts in Canada continue having to deal with the super-stupid. The never-decreasing saga of Freemen on the Land/Sovereign Citizens has once again struck and this time in front of judge who wasn't having any part of it.

B.C. judge sentences man to 1 year in jail for contempt of court​

Social Sharing​

'The courts of British Columbia are legitimate, or they are not. There is no middle ground': judge

The Canadian Press · Posted: Apr 21, 2023 9:10 PM EDT | Last Updated: 10 hours ago

Prince Rupert provincial court judge David Paterson says he sentenced Cameron Hardy to one year in jail for contempt of court for disregard for the court's time and taxpayers' money. (Adobe Stock)
A provincial court judge in Prince Rupert, B.C., has sentenced a 46-year-old man to a year in jail for contempt of court, ruling he tried to circumvent the justice system with "pseudo-legal'' and "stupid'' arguments.
Judge David Paterson sentenced Cameron Hardy, in part to deter others from subjecting the court to the theory known as "organized pseudo-legal commercial arguments.''
Paterson's ruling details how Hardy, who was facing a charge of resisting or obstructing a peace officer in 2021, considers himself a "freeman,'' meaning he won't accept that courts have jurisdiction over him and falsely believes Canadian law doesn't apply to him.

"The courts of British Columbia are legitimate, or they are not. There is no middle ground. There are no shades of grey,'' Paterson's ruling says.
"Unfortunately for Hardy, the courts of British Columbia, including the provincial court of British Columbia, are legitimate.''
Hardy, who represented himself in court, was charged with "contempt in the face of the court'' for refusing to recognize the court's legitimacy or to follow the court's orders and take part in the trial process.

Misinformation in the courtroom​

In his reasons for sentence on the contempt charge, Paterson found Hardy displayed "flagrant disregard'' for the court's directions and orders.
Paterson found Hardy's legal arguments could be harmful to the justice system by turning routine matters into time-consuming exercises, and "his arguments were not merely legally false but often just plain stupid.''
"Hardy's defence was vexatious and frivolous. He had no hope of success; thus, logically, his only purpose was to frustrate the court and waste government resources.''

Paterson ruled that Hardy intended to "harm or deceive the court'' with "nonsensical'' legal theory.
"It seems that phraseology such as 'post-truth' and 'fake news' has become increasingly prevalent in public discourse,'' Paterson's ruling says.
"As a court system, we need to recognize how the growing abundance of misinformation influences people in the political, technological, and societal context, including the courtroom.''
The ruling details how Hardy was first arrested in Prince Rupert in May 2021 and charged with one count of resisting or wilfully obstructing peace officers in the execution of their duty.
Days after his arrest, Hardy was released from custody under the condition that he wasn't allowed within 10 metres of a Prince Rupert liquor store.
In later virtual court appearances, Hardy repeatedly challenged the court's jurisdiction over him, saying he was "not a person. I'm a man commonly called Cameron Hardy.''
His first trial date was set for Sept. 3, 2021, but Hardy wasn't allowed in the courthouse when he refused to wear a mask.
At the time, the judge asked him over the phone if he had a letter from a doctor confirming he was unable to wear a mask for the short walk between the courthouse entrance and the courtroom where the trial was scheduled.

"I don't need another man or woman's permission to breathe,'' Hardy replied.
"I have been breathing my entire life on my own.''
The court eventually issued a warrant for Hardy's arrest for not appearing in court on the set trial date.

A waste of court time​

Paterson's reasons for Hardy's sentence lays out a timeline for several court dates derailed by his "pseudo-legal arguments.''
Paterson made a ruling disallowing Hardy to file documents or make any pseudo-legal arguments at trial, telling him they wasted the court's time and taxpayers' money and had no chance of succeeding.
"My ruling made no difference to Hardy,'' Paterson's ruling says.
He seemed more interested in doing what he could to stop the trial from proceeding and putting on a show for his numerous acquaintances, the judge says.
The judge says he didn't order a psychiatric assessment because he found Hardy to be intelligent but an "anti-government ideologist.''


This is the actual decision for those interested:


For those with an even bigger spirit of adventure here's the seminal case on the Sovereign Citizen stupidity, Meads v Meads. Warning - It's 183 pages long.


🍻
 
The courts in Canada continue having to deal with the super-stupid. The never-decreasing saga of Freemen on the Land/Sovereign Citizens has once again struck and this time in front of judge who wasn't having any part of it.





This is the actual decision for those interested:



For those with an even bigger spirit of adventure here's the seminal case on the Sovereign Citizen stupidity, Meads v Meads. Warning - It's 183 pages long.



🍻
A full year for common law contempt of court- that’s a loud message being sent. Nice to see a serious sanction for one of these idiots. I’ll have to give that one a read later. Thanks!
 
A full year for common law contempt of court- that’s a loud message being sent. Nice to see a serious sanction for one of these idiots. I’ll have to give that one a read later. Thanks!
I really hate sovcits, but even I think a year in jail for being an idiot and contempt of court is A little harsh. It doesn't even sound like he committed an original crime; everything he's so far been in trouble for is being in the way and being an ass (yes I know obstructing a peace officer is a real crime but I view it slightly less in severity than being the one who committed the original crime for which a cop/police officer is involved with).
 
The courts in Canada continue having to deal with the super-stupid. The never-decreasing saga of Freemen on the Land/Sovereign Citizens has once again struck and this time in front of judge who wasn't having any part of it.





This is the actual decision for those interested:



For those with an even bigger spirit of adventure here's the seminal case on the Sovereign Citizen stupidity, Meads v Meads. Warning - It's 183 pages long.



🍻
I got to page 25 in the Hardy case and already want to smother him with a pillow...

I’ll give the Judge an A for patience.
 
I really hate sovcits, but even I think a year in jail for being an idiot and contempt of court is A little harsh. It doesn't even sound like he committed an original crime; everything he's so far been in trouble for is being in the way and being an ass (yes I know obstructing a peace officer is a real crime but I view it slightly less in severity than being the one who committed the original crime for which a cop/police officer is involved with).
It may be a bit harsh, but everything short of that simply hasn’t worked.
 
I read Meads, it's very well written. Apparently, it's become the standard in most of the Commonwealth, having been cited recently in Aus and NZ. While the US has no comparable opinion, the case has been referred to in a number of academic papers dealing with the subject.

Watching SovCits lose is something of a guilty pleasure of mine.
 
I read Meads, it's very well written. Apparently, it's become the standard in most of the Commonwealth, having been cited recently in Aus and NZ. While the US has no comparable opinion, the case has been referred to in a number of academic papers dealing with the subject.

Watching SovCits lose is something of a guilty pleasure of mine.
Please tell me the judge says something like this:

Animated GIF
 
Imagine being such an arsehole that you spend time in jail despite the judges wanting to release you, then repeatedly get warrants for an arrest for continuing to be an arsehole. Those various judges had more patience then I would have.

All over what was a fine for not wanting to wear a mask to go get his liquor on.
 
Absolutely. I don't think the "freeman" movement is an organized entity in any sort (that would seem to run counter to their beliefs at any rate). But the "freemen" do seem to follow the same "script" as it were when dealing with LE (ie, your aren't in uniform unless you have your business card, my name isn't the name on my license, and all that other pseudo-legal nonsense), which does make them a different sort of beast than the, repeat offender who just plain hates the cops.
I’ve seen manslaughter get less.
 
I disagree with that sentence for the simple reason it seems to be handed out simply because the judge didn’t like his defense, which as wrong as it is, he is entitled to.

We have much more serious crimes being given much less time in jail, as delusional as this guy is I don’t see him as a specific threat to anyone unlike many which are just being given conditional discharges.
 
I disagree with that sentence for the simple reason it seems to be handed out simply because the judge didn’t like his defense, which as wrong as it is, he is entitled to.

We have much more serious crimes being given much less time in jail, as delusional as this guy is I don’t see him as a specific threat to anyone unlike many which are just being given conditional discharges.

It’s not a matter of “didn’t like his defense”. These kooks are SO far beyond that. They abuse various legal processes and deliberately delay and clog up the courts, while also refusing to recognize the legitimacy or jurisdiction of the courts. It’s weaponized bullshit. Each day of court that’s wasted is someone else’s justice being delayed. These people are the ultimate vexatious litigants.

He’s free to appeal his sentence. He’ll just need to rely on actual law to do so.
 
I disagree with that sentence for the simple reason it seems to be handed out simply because the judge didn’t like his defense, which as wrong as it is, he is entitled to.

We have much more serious crimes being given much less time in jail, as delusional as this guy is I don’t see him as a specific threat to anyone unlike many which are just being given conditional discharges.
This isn't the judge not liking his defence, it's the Supreme Court of Canada ruling that it's not a valid legal defence, and is a waste of courts time. Also refusal to follow instructions, answer questions, follow probation rules, or show up to court when required.

Court resources are limited, and with the Jordan rules, it's entirely consistent to not tolerate a defence that has zero grounding in Canadian law (or logic).

If you read the actual transcript the 'man identified as Cameron Hardy, who is a man from mankind' was lucky to not get a throat punch, after the judge ruled against his defence repeatedly and he still kept going.
 
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