Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Kat Stevens]

See @brihard above, but yup, they sure are. Maybe an effective opposition would be a start; when the alternative is still crap things are crappy either way, so it's more of a lesser evil choice.

So far Canadians continue to decide LPC under Trudeau is a lesser evil, and in provincial politics Conservative parties have more success by deliberately distancing themselves from the federal party, which worked in Ontario and Nova Scotia. If someone keeps beating you maybe doubling down on the current approach won't work?

Caption: Provincial conservatives to CPC

Anyway, the PM and Cabinet have a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it, and I think this one is probably politically a wash (regardless of what the inquiry finds). That's all built into the Constitution, laws and regulations of this country, and gives flexibility for when things hit the fan. I think I prefer the Westminster system to other forms of democracy which seem to just completely stagnate once they hit a certain size now that people seem to find it impossible to compromise politically and work together.

I'm personally happy with the general outcome of getting the protests cleared out, not okay with freezing accounts (which hasn't really been addressed in the inquiry unless I missed it), and think it could have been avoided if something had been done earlier. The EA was brought in with some specific limits, was closed off when things where done, and there is a public inquiry which has brought a lot more to light then I thought (like the PINs; that was unexpected).

Short term if Canadians don't like it it will get tracked in the opinion polls, longer term there is an election. If they do something popular/unpopular but still legal, what other recourse would you suggest?

All the shitty things that shitty man has perpetrated since he first squeezed that smug little mug out from between Maggie’s thighs, without being once held accountable, and you still believe that?

 

[brihard]

It's almost criminal that the national police force coupled with CSIS would not be able to have a clear picture of the movers in the convoy, where they were going and what they wanted to do by the time they got to Ottawa. Then not communicating to the OPS/OPP this info so that the two, at a minimum, plan to divert the heavy trucks from the downtown is head scratching.

That wouldn’t be CSIS’s jam unless they assessed, at that time, a threat to the security of Canada that justified an investigation. Even at that, assuming CSIS would share much with law enforcement is… optimistic. My understanding is that they jealously guard their sources and methods, and that the LE/CSIS info flow is very one way.

I don’t believe there was any lack of communication across services about what was coming and what was known. Certainly by the time the western convoy was into Ontario there was solid info on how many vehicles had committed past Manitoba- and that meant several days’ heads up as they wrinkled their way east. I can’t speak to what OPS did with the information once received; the inquiry certainly didn’t paint a flattering picture on the analysis and dissemination of that particular intelligence within OPS.

I’ve certainly gotten the impression that there was a serious reluctance to act at the very top of Ottawa Police. Anecdotally, within a day and a half of him stepping down, Bell stepping up, and OPS/OPP/RCMP forming unified command, it was clear to those of us working the event that the approach had shifted and that enforcement was very imminent. I think and perceived that any delay between Sloly’s resignation and the commencement of clearing was the minimum necessary to arrange and actually physically bring the needed bodies in from other jurisdictions, and to actually execute the plan now that it was permitted.

 

[Weinie]

That wouldn’t be CSIS’s jam unless they assessed, at that time, a threat to the security of Canada that justified an investigation. Even at that, assuming CSIS would share much with law enforcement is… optimistic. My understanding is that they jealously guard their sources and methods, and that the LE/CSIS info flow is very one way.

I don’t believe there was any lack of communication across services about what was coming and what was known. Certainly by the time the western convoy was into Ontario there was solid info on how many vehicles had committed past Manitoba- and that meant several days’ heads up as they wrinkled their way east. I can’t speak to what OPS did with the information once received; the inquiry certainly didn’t paint a flattering picture on the analysis and dissemination of that particular intelligence within OPS.

I’ve certainly gotten the impression that there was a serious reluctance to act at the very top of Ottawa Police. Anecdotally, within a day and a half of him stepping down, Bell stepping up, and OPS/OPP/RCMP forming unified command, it was clear to those of us working the event that the approach had shifted and that enforcement was very imminent. I think and perceived that any delay between Sloly’s resignation and the commencement of clearing was the minimum necessary to arrange and actually physically bring the needed bodies in from other jurisdictions, and to actually execute the plan now that it was permitted.

Hind sight is 20/20. Foresight was myopic.

 

[brihard]

Hind sight is 20/20. Foresight was myopic.

Concur. Senior police leadership failed to see what intelligence told them was coming, and failed to listen to what the protest organizers and leadership were themselves saying they were going to do.

Acknowledging my own hindsight moment: Someone may rightly point out that I myself, on this site, was very dismissive of the likelihood that the convoy protests would achieve any potency in Ottawa. I’ll freely admit I blew that call, and that I thought it would be a fart in the wind like most Ottawa protests or previous convoy movements such as the yellow vesters.

It’s unfortunate that senior police leadership, with access to far better information and expertise than I had, blew the call this badly and let the occupation establish itself and dig in

 

[Jarnhamar]

It’s unfortunate that senior police leadership, with access to far better information and expertise than I had, blew the call this badly and let the occupation establish itself and dig in

/Tinfoil hat
It's also possible the police, with access to all that information, knew what was going to happen but someone higher up told them not to interrupt an enemy while they were making a mistake.

 

[brihard]

/Tinfoil hat
It's also possible the police, with access to all that information, knew what was going to happen but someone higher up told them not to interrupt an enemy while they were making a mistake.

Tin foil hat indeed. This was an OPS decision to make; the guy who failed to make it resigned in ignominy and his name is mud both in the eyes of the public and within the profession. And, while I see the federal government likely surviving this not too badly bruised, I see no actual tangible gain for them. There’s no actual sustained policy or other enduring government action that benefits the current government, and which depended on the EA invocation to be able to either do or justify.

I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that the situation in Ottawa became what it did for any reason beyond the city’s police massively shitting the bed on how it handled things.

 

[Furniture]

Tin foil hat indeed. This was an OPS decision to make; the guy who failed to make it resigned in ignominy and his name is mud both in the eyes of the public and within the profession. And, while I see the federal government likely surviving this not too badly bruised, I see no actual tangible gain for them. There’s no actual sustained policy or other enduring government action that benefits the current government, and which depended on the EA invocation to be able to either do or justify.

I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that the situation in Ottawa became what it did for any reason beyond the city’s police massively shitting the bed on how it handled things.

Yeah, the situation didn't get escalated by the government refusing to even acknowledge that anger that led to the protest, or the MSM latching onto the one guy who showed up with a covered face waving a swastika.... It's entirely just on the former OPS Chief.

 

[lenaitch]

You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ?

I didn't follow the Inquiry closely; was there evidence of that? Telling a police service not to do its job is different that not telling them to do it. Admittedly, even the second element has problems of interpretation, in Ontario anyway, because of the way the Police Services Act is written and the way 'operational direction' is interpreted.

are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?

I don't know if OPS is below its authorized strength, but do know that the OPP and RCMP are below strength; although I don't have the numbers. Even for the strength they do have, the multitude of leaves impact deployable staffing, and I know the Ontario government consistently refuses to take those leaves into account.

Is there sufficient police for major events such as this? Yes. Is there sufficient police for major event such as this without negatively impacting service delivery? No. You don't design a church for Easter Sunday.

 

[brihard]

Yeah, the situation didn't get escalated by the government refusing to even acknowledge that anger that led to the protest, or the MSM latching onto the one guy who showed up with a covered face waving a swastika.... It's entirely just on the former OPS Chief.

I’m speaking of the failure to enforce the law, end the occupation, and restore public order. That was purely a policing matter, and it was primarily a matter of will, not of capacity.

I’m convinced from what I saw, heard, and experienced, that there was no reasonable course of action the federal government could have taken that would have satisfied the demands of the core groups within the occupation. Within the foreseeable future at the time, they were staying until forced out.

I don't know if OPS is below its authorized strength, but do know that the OPP and RCMP are below strength; although I don't have the numbers. Even for the strength they do have, the multitude of leaves impact deployable staffing, and I know the Ontario government consistently refuses to take those leaves into account.

OPS is way below strength. They’re desperately trying to hire, they’re losing a lot of people, and they have still more on sick leave or accommodated for disability and unable to go on the road. OPS is not in a good place.

 

[lenaitch]

The company I work for ( Property Management ) owns a block of buildings in that area. It was hard to get to and from for after hour calls, and when the police operation started to limit and control traffic in the area it became even harder to do our jobs.

There were 2 sides to the protest, the protesters and the police.

Ottawa Police Service is very small operation for the size of the city geographically. 2790 square Km 1 million plus people. 1480 officers , 620 support staff. Budget of $346 million ( compared to Toronto 5500 officers, another 2000 support staffer, and 630 square km and 2.093 million people. Budget of 1.1 Billion dollars) request for 1800 officers , that is more than all of OPS has to begin with, and still needed officers for normal day to day operations.

The city of Ottawa has more than one police service , ( RCMP for Federal land and diplomatic properties, OPP for highways 417, 416, Military Police for DND sites, armouries, ranges and other buildings and the Parliament Protect Services (Parliamentary Protective Service is not a law enforcement agency, and its officers are not peace officers. They are, however, public officers which allows them to be exempt from various weapon restrictions under the control of the Speaker of the House, and other staff), and believe it or not CN and CP police for the railway lands if required.

The downtown core is most likely the most confusing zone for policing in the city. One side of the street is one agency and the other side of the street is another agency. Lack of communication between agencies has been a factor for many years. Bus hostage taking on the Hill 1989, the shooting at the National War Memorial, this Protest have all complained about lack of communication abilities between services and the over lapping boundaries of control.

The handling of the protest was very professional and very Canadian like , unlike the operations we all have watched on CNN and other US news services. If this happened in the US, the mayor and his staff can request National Guard troops from the State Governor ( The Governor can activate National Guard personnel to "State Active Duty" in response to natural or man-made disasters or Homeland Defense missions. State Active Duty is based on State statute and policy and on State funds. Soldiers and Airmen remain under the command and control of the Governor. ) The Guard roles in with whatever equipment the Guard has to move troops, buses , trucks, Humvee, helicopters etc, and weapons. Then it becomes a military operation, we have all watched the NG doing riot control at various things over the last couple of years. Not always a great moment to be remembered. Shootings, tear gas, rubber bullets etc.

Canadian Police even handed out notices detailing directions to vacate the area and a time limit.
There were no military equipment bought in to support the police operation. Some CS gas was used, one non lethal weapon was used, ( no charges laid by the Ontario SIU ) Horse unit from Toronto had an incident of stepping on a person, ( reports of her being killed, were very wrong and blown out of proportion like most things from the Protester side) .

Problems this protest caused for Policing were a ripple effect right down the Ottawa Valley, OPP service most of the Ottawa Valley from East of Ottawa to Deep River along the highway 17. It limited the number of Officers available to deal with traffic accidents, missing children ( called the police about a toddler wandering the streets of Renfrew in nothing but 1 piece PJs and boots in Jan, I was told by the 911 operator that officers were on the way to attend but were coming from all over the Valley because there not a lot of staff available, coming from outside the area .

There were no serious injuries, no one was killed, ( 14 days of protests in the USA and 19 plus reported killed in Spring of 2020 )

I have a solution to the problem and it would most likely take an Act of Parliament, Queens Park and National Assembly in Quebec City.


National Capital Area is taken over and treated like a Province within 2 Provinces

The down town core becomes a Federal Police area, on both sides of the River. Removing all jurisdiction issues from The OPP, OPS , RCMP and the PPS. Creating a RCMP zone that they police just like the other Federal Lands. Remove commercial traffic from most of the area, unless on deliveries etc. Create a Command team for larger operations that would involve the OPP and OPS, and MPs but command is under 1 Service Commander. Budget control is thru the Federal Government to the RCMP so the City of Ottawa does not have to go after the fact ask to pass the hat for donations from the Federal Government to cover things that the OPS has to support.

Have training operations with the major Police Services across Ontario and Quebec so when they are called upon for support they can work together and use the same training books so to speak. Every Police service that was sent , had different training, PPE, and comms gear. Not many of the Units have knowledge of working with a Mounted Unit and crown control on horse back. Annual training as a team should be done. So they have the same basic knowledge of how things work on the larger scale.

The control of the Protest would of been managed better if there single chain of command. Not 3 or 4 chains.
just some thoughts I have had
now rip them apart s

Interesting concept that has obvious precedent in places like the US and Australia. How the nitty gritty would work out here is unknown since it would have to start with a Constitutional amendment. I'm not sure of a province-within-a-province is jurisdictionally sound, and if you create some kind of separate jurisdictional entity; i.e. another province or federal capital region, Ontario (and assuming Quebec) municipal and provincial police services lose natural authority. There is a legislative method to have members sworn in both Ontario and Quebec, in addition to the emergency authorities that were enabled by the EA, but it is very clunky and essentially member specific.

I think that would be the best fixes for firearms would be to devolve it to the provinces. Not sure how that would work legally or constitutionally but it could alleviate some of the political issues behind certain gun laws.

Or maybe set a threshold nationally and any province could then decide or not to go stricter if that is what they want.

Under the Constitution, the federal government enacts criminal law but the provinces are responsible for the administration of justice. A provincial AG can determine how and where to direct its judicial resources. I can't recall if it's even been done in a big 'thumb-the nose-at-the-feds' way but the potential is certainly there.

Yes, the EA was passed by parliament (back in 1988). As to the processes that were required on invoking the act and declaring an emergency, Parliament's part is mentioned here.

Government of Canada declaration of a public order emergency - Canada.ca

In order to declare a public order emergency, Canada’s <em>Emergencies Act</em> requires that there be an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada that are so serious as to be a national emergency.

www.canada.ca

How did the House and Senate respond? A reading of Hansard makes for good information and entertainment. The motion was tabled in the House on Thursday 17 February https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-33/hansard#Int-11530415 Debate continued until 2400 hrs and was adjourned till 0700 the next day for continuation.
Circumstances precluded the House meeting that following day (Friday 18 Feb) so debate recommenced on Saturday, 19 Feb. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-34/hansard
Debate went into Sunday, 20 Feb. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-35/hansard
And continued into Monday, 21 Feb when the motion was put to the vote and carried. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-36/hansard#Int-11539446

The Senate did not spend as much time debating the Declaration of a Public Order Emergency. The motion was put to the Senate on Monday, 21 Feb. https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/019db_2022-02-22-e
Debate was continued the next day, Tuesday 22 Feb, but the motion was withdrawn later in the day due to the revocation of the Public Order Emergency. https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/020db_2022-02-23-e#9

I think the question was more about the Act itself. I couldn't sources a doc showing the legislative progress but can only assume it following the normal course of House and Senate proceedings. It received Royal Assent on 21 Jul 1988. Declaration of orders under the Act is the purview of the Executive, similar to enacting Regulations.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Canadian Police even handed out notices detailing directions to vacate the area and a time limit.
There were no military equipment bought in to support the police operation. Some CS gas was used, one non lethal weapon was used, ( no charges laid by the Ontario SIU ) Horse unit from Toronto had an incident of stepping on a person, ( reports of her being killed, were very wrong and blown out of proportion like most things from the Protester side) .

However, there was that RCAF/SOF King Air SIGINT aircraft that was on occasion was circiling above the protest on Feb 10th and 11th. According to government reports this was a training mission and it was just coincidental that the flights occured the same time as the protest. And the link above seems to acknowledge that as the aircraft was flying around Ottawa prior to the convoy arrival.

Now bear with me as I adjust my tinfoil hat, but whats the best training mission, but one when an being able to observe an actual protest??

 

[lenaitch]

The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also.

A bit of pedantic diversion, but Valley folk, like pretty much everybody else in Ontario, don't "pay extra"; they pay for police service. Mike Harris drove funding of policing services down to the municipal level in the early '90s. Any municipality is free to have their own service or pay somebody else - OPP or municipal - to do it for them. Highway patrol, some other designated services such as aviation, as well as policing unorganized (no municipal government) are paid for by the province.

 

[brihard]

However, there was that RCAF/SOF King Air SIGINT aircraft that was on occasion was circiling above the protest on Feb 10th and 11th. According to government reports this was a training mission and it was just coincidental that the flights occured the same time as the protest. And the link above seems to acknowledge that as the aircraft was flying around Ottawa prior to the convoy arrival.

Now bear with me as I adjust my tinfoil hat, but whats the best training mission, but one when an being able to observe an actual protest??

Indulging the theory for a moment- that would be on super shaky ground legally. DAOD 8008 governs defence intelligence, and any defence intelligence activity has to fall within Canadian law and serve defence purposes.

In theory, CAF could respond to a request for technical assistance from law enforcement under the NDA… But the mechanisms for law enforcement to intercept private communications are highly restrictive- there’s gotta be a warrant from a superior court judge, it has to be in the investigation of a specific offense (and that offense has to be on a list for which interception can be legally allowed), and, save for national security or organized crime cases, other investigative techniques must have failed or must be shown to be unlikely to succeed. Even under the slightly looser national security criteria, police would still have to convince a judge that the interception would afford evidence of an offense. There’s no way for police to back door this warrant requirement outside of a risk of serious imminent harm to persons or property.

If it’s simply a matter of physically tracking/geolocation emitting devices, you simply don’t need anything close to that sophisticated to physically track phones, and the legal requirements for physically tracking are quite a bit less burdensome than an intercept. CAF help simply wouldn’t be needed.

So… I highly doubt that CANSOF SIGINT capability was being used to assist law enforcement. Law enforcement have their own aircraft with great cameras and such, so a non-SIGINT role for such flights to assist LE is quite unlikely. I don’t know of a defence intelligence requirement that would justify and necessitate domestic SIGINT from an aerial platform over Ottawa, and if there was I doubt they’d squawk openly.

Of course, since we’re talking CANSOF and maybe SIGINT, I also don’t have a friggin’ clue generally, and I could be completely wrong.

/Indulging hypothetical ends.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

So… I highly doubt that CANSOF SIGINT capability was being used to assist law enforcement. Law enforcement have their own aircraft with great cameras and such, so a non-SIGINT role for such flights to assist LE is quite unlikely. I don’t know of a defence intelligence requirement that would justify and necessitate domestic SIGINT from an aerial platform over Ottawa, and if there was I doubt they’d squawk openly.

Of course, since we’re talking CANSOF and maybe SIGINT, I also don’t have a friggin’ clue generally, and I could be completely wrong.

/Indulging hypothetical ends.

Like I said originally strickly tinfoil territory, but what if the flights were like they said "training" missions and not in support of LEO, would they still need a warrant or any other authorization?

 

[brihard]

Like I said originally strickly tinfoil territory, but what if the flights were like they said "training" missions and not in support of LEO, would they still need a warrant or any other authorization?

Any interception of private communication without consent is an offence under the criminal code unless it falls under specific exempted circumstances, which are narrow. Having a warrant under Part VI of the crim code is one. A warrant under the CSIS act is another. The others generally have to do with spectrum management or telecommunications service quality control.

That’s not to say there may not be some other niche legal circumstance where CAF can intercept without consent for some domestic intelligence purpose… But I’m highly skeptical that any such need could have been articulated in conjunction with the convoy, or that an aerial platform would have been the right tool for the job. The convoy were, on the one hand, very openly using unencrypted apps like Zello, or unencrypted cellular communications, or, on the other side, likely using data-based apps with end to end encryption like Signal, Telegram, or WhatsApp. I just don’t see how a CANSOF plane fits into it.

Again, just to hedge, what I don’t know about CANSOF and SIGINT could fill volumes. My insight on this is just a bit better than a layman, save for a relatively deeper understanding of what police need for judicially authorized lawful interception.

 

[Lumber]

All the shitty things that shitty man has perpetrated since he first squeezed that smug little mug out from between Maggie’s thighs, without being once held accountable, and you still believe that?

He's been held accountable twice. They were the 2019 and 2021 elections, and he was given a pass.

 

[Good2Golf]

I just don’t see how a CANSOF plane fits into it.

Occam’s Razor…it most likely doesn’t/didn’t.

 

[Furniture]

I’m speaking of the failure to enforce the law, end the occupation, and restore public order. That was purely a policing matter, and it was primarily a matter of will, not of capacity.

I’m convinced from what I saw, heard, and experienced, that there was no reasonable course of action the federal government could have taken that would have satisfied the demands of the core groups within the occupation. Within the foreseeable future at the time, they were staying until forced out.

Yeah, no point in trying to deescalate... Why send a representative to hear their concerns, and sit down with the protestors, when you can just pretend they aren't there and hope the city/province deals with the mess?

The federal government made no attempt to try to deescalate the situation, and in reality just poured gas onto the fire hoping to make it work for cheap short-term politics.

Indulging the theory for a moment- that would be on super shaky ground legally. DAOD 8008 governs defence intelligence, and any defence intelligence activity has to fall within Canadian law and serve defence purposes.

That particular DAOD might be a bridge too far even for CANSOFCOM, but I've seen them and other L1s ignore a DAOD when it's inconvenient. So even without tinfoil, it's not hard to imagine an "enterprising" individual or two decided to us it as a training aid...

 

[Kat Stevens]

Gawd the fucking fanboys on this site will let anything go from that man. Enjoy that pillow.

 

[brihard]

Yeah, no point in trying to deescalate... Why send a representative to hear their concerns, and sit down with the protestors, when you can just pretend they aren't there and hope the city/province deals with the mess?

The federal government made no attempt to try to deescalate the situation, and in reality just poured gas onto the fire hoping to make it work for cheap short-term politics.

You’re talking about the crew with the noose imagery, who tried to advance an ‘MOU’ that would supplant the House of Commons in government, and place them in its stead to work with the Senate and GG to… whatever it was they wanted?

The groups that combined to occupy downtown Ottawa and to force political change did nothing to show they were amenable to being persuaded by any course of action that would leave our democratically elected government in power. Those groups, on the occasions where they approached coherence, did not portray themselves as being likely parties in a responsible dialogue.

Sometimes when a child is having a tantrum, you pick them up and carry them out of the grocery store while they scream. I’m sure we don’t see this the same way of course, but I’m at peace with that.