Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Remius]

If you are of the premise that this law requires updating because it was written in 1985, are you also of the same premise that the Charter of Rights needs some serious updating? They are of the same era.

No.

The definitions in the EA are strict on purpose, it is meant to only be enacted in actual national emergencies which parliament has defined, not emergencies that a bureaucrat or a political party can define in the moment.

I am not saying it should be defined in the moment but I think you can agree that the definition of what constitutes a national threat has evolved over time. Like a lot of legislation it fails to keep up with evolving times, emerging technologies and threats.

 

[suffolkowner]

If you are of the premise that this law requires updating because it was written in 1985, are you also of the same premise that the Charter of Rights needs some serious updating? They are of the same era.

The definitions in the EA are strict on purpose, it is meant to only be enacted in actual national emergencies which parliament has defined, not emergencies that a bureaucrat or a political party can define in the moment.

Yes the Charter and Constitution should be updated but I will not hold my breath.
The EA was enacted by parliament. Was it though? Was it passed by the Senate? Did it need to be? GG signed? Im forgetting everything that happened

 

[Halifax Tar]

Having seen the trucker convoy up close and personal, I would disagree. There was some pretty friendly people, but also a lot of very aggressive, in your face loud people actively accosting people. Not just downtown; as I alluded to some of them took their politics all over the city with them and would yell at random people wearing masks, or get pissed off at workers asking them to put on a mask (as required by provincial health orders with fines on the business for non-compliance).

It was bad enough that a lot of businesses shut down for their worker's safety, but on the plus side random people kept coming to the defence of cashiers, stock takers etc when some asshole started losing their mind. Some of them seemed to actively go out of their way to 'stick it to the libs' or whatever and were just obnoxious and acting like bullies, which worked right up until total strangers started to band together against them.

We get large protests all the time, and usually the May Day, anti-abortion, and some other annual ones have more people come into town for them, but never felt the same kind of tension in the city as with this one, as the rest are pretty self contained, whereas this one protestors were harrassing and threatening random people that had nothing to do with what their issue, and also threatening violence against the government.

That's fair. I wasn't there.

 

[QV]

No.


I am not saying it should be defined in the moment but I think you can agree that the definition of what constitutes a national threat has evolved over time. Like a lot of legislation it fails to keep up with evolving times, emerging technologies and threats.

I think the very strict definitions as outlined in the EA are more than adequate considering the existence of other laws that exist to deal with practically any and all threats. The EA is the modern day version of marshal law. The convoy's presence in Ottawa did not necessitate marshal law.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's fair. I wasn't there.

I'd say it was probably the minority of folks, but still numbered in several hundred (so maybe 20-30%), and we still have some hanging around like the nutjobs in the former church.

I don't think it should have ever gotten to the point where anyone was ever considering the EA, but city hall and OPS leadership had lost the plot fairly early on, and had declared a state of emergency a few weeks before that, with some on council suggesting military assistance, so I think getting external policing resources is a much better alternative to getting military in to break it up.

As a piece of legislation I think it needs updating, but do like the public inquiry requirement. It does seems like portions of the EA gave them authority to do things like get the tow trucks in, but it would be nice if there was something available before that (some kind of court order?).

In general though don't think the legislation should be too specific, as the decision makers need room to manuever for changing societies, and I'm sure in 15 years there will be new things we haven't even thought of before (VR attacks?).

 

[Lumber]

I think the very strict definitions as outlined in the EA are more than adequate considering the existence of other laws that exist to deal with practically any and all threats. The EA is the modern day version of marshal law. The convoy's presence in Ottawa did not necessitate marshal law.

The health of many people in downtown Ottawa was being severely and negatively impacted, and the local authorities were proving to be incapable of dealing with the incident and protecting the citizens.

So, if this whole event had unfolded, but we changed all the terminology to say that "marshal law" had been enacted instead of the EA, I still think it would have been a reasonable use of the government's powers.

 

[Furniture]

That's fair. I wasn't there.

I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'd say it was probably the minority of folks, but still numbered in several hundred (so maybe 20-30%), and we still have some hanging around like the nutjobs in the former church.

I don't think it should have ever gotten to the point where anyone was ever considering the EA, but city hall and OPS leadership had lost the plot fairly early on, and had declared a state of emergency a few weeks before that, with some on council suggesting military assistance, so I think getting external policing resources is a much better alternative to getting military in to break it up.

As a piece of legislation I think it needs updating, but do like the public inquiry requirement. It does seems like portions of the EA gave them authority to do things like get the tow trucks in, but it would be nice if there was something available before that (some kind of court order?).

In general though don't think the legislation should be too specific, as the decision makers need room to manuever for changing societies, and I'm sure in 15 years there will be new things we haven't even thought of before (VR attacks?).

I think we have a few pieces of legislation that could use some updating.

Specifically those in reference to the cyber world.

 

[Lumber]

I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.

Please go on.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.

If you say that three times another Trudeau is created. Be careful. No one needs that.

 

[suffolkowner]

Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.

You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ?

Sounds like it could be a slippery slope.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

The company I work for ( Property Management ) owns a block of buildings in that area. It was hard to get to and from for after hour calls, and when the police operation started to limit and control traffic in the area it became even harder to do our jobs.

There were 2 sides to the protest, the protesters and the police.

Ottawa Police Service is very small operation for the size of the city geographically. 2790 square Km 1 million plus people. 1480 officers , 620 support staff. Budget of $346 million ( compared to Toronto 5500 officers, another 2000 support staffer, and 630 square km and 2.093 million people. Budget of 1.1 Billion dollars) request for 1800 officers , that is more than all of OPS has to begin with, and still needed officers for normal day to day operations.

The city of Ottawa has more than one police service , ( RCMP for Federal land and diplomatic properties, OPP for highways 417, 416, Military Police for DND sites, armouries, ranges and other buildings and the Parliament Protect Services (Parliamentary Protective Service is not a law enforcement agency, and its officers are not peace officers. They are, however, public officers which allows them to be exempt from various weapon restrictions under the control of the Speaker of the House, and other staff), and believe it or not CN and CP police for the railway lands if required.

The downtown core is most likely the most confusing zone for policing in the city. One side of the street is one agency and the other side of the street is another agency. Lack of communication between agencies has been a factor for many years. Bus hostage taking on the Hill 1989, the shooting at the National War Memorial, this Protest have all complained about lack of communication abilities between services and the over lapping boundaries of control.

The handling of the protest was very professional and very Canadian like , unlike the operations we all have watched on CNN and other US news services. If this happened in the US, the mayor and his staff can request National Guard troops from the State Governor ( The Governor can activate National Guard personnel to "State Active Duty" in response to natural or man-made disasters or Homeland Defense missions. State Active Duty is based on State statute and policy and on State funds. Soldiers and Airmen remain under the command and control of the Governor. ) The Guard roles in with whatever equipment the Guard has to move troops, buses , trucks, Humvee, helicopters etc, and weapons. Then it becomes a military operation, we have all watched the NG doing riot control at various things over the last couple of years. Not always a great moment to be remembered. Shootings, tear gas, rubber bullets etc.

Canadian Police even handed out notices detailing directions to vacate the area and a time limit.
There were no military equipment bought in to support the police operation. Some CS gas was used, one non lethal weapon was used, ( no charges laid by the Ontario SIU ) Horse unit from Toronto had an incident of stepping on a person, ( reports of her being killed, were very wrong and blown out of proportion like most things from the Protester side) .

Problems this protest caused for Policing were a ripple effect right down the Ottawa Valley, OPP service most of the Ottawa Valley from East of Ottawa to Deep River along the highway 17. It limited the number of Officers available to deal with traffic accidents, missing children ( called the police about a toddler wandering the streets of Renfrew in nothing but 1 piece PJs and boots in Jan, I was told by the 911 operator that officers were on the way to attend but were coming from all over the Valley because there not a lot of staff available, coming from outside the area .

There were no serious injuries, no one was killed, ( 14 days of protests in the USA and 19 plus reported killed in Spring of 2020 )

I have a solution to the problem and it would most likely take an Act of Parliament, Queens Park and National Assembly in Quebec City.


National Capital Area is taken over and treated like a Province within 2 Provinces

The down town core becomes a Federal Police area, on both sides of the River. Removing all jurisdiction issues from The OPP, OPS , RCMP and the PPS. Creating a RCMP zone that they police just like the other Federal Lands. Remove commercial traffic from most of the area, unless on deliveries etc. Create a Command team for larger operations that would involve the OPP and OPS, and MPs but command is under 1 Service Commander. Budget control is thru the Federal Government to the RCMP so the City of Ottawa does not have to go after the fact ask to pass the hat for donations from the Federal Government to cover things that the OPS has to support.

Have training operations with the major Police Services across Ontario and Quebec so when they are called upon for support they can work together and use the same training books so to speak. Every Police service that was sent , had different training, PPE, and comms gear. Not many of the Units have knowledge of working with a Mounted Unit and crown control on horse back. Annual training as a team should be done. So they have the same basic knowledge of how things work on the larger scale.

The control of the Protest would of been managed better if there single chain of command. Not 3 or 4 chains.
just some thoughts I have had
now rip them apart s

 

[Furniture]

Please go on.

I saw a few vocal and potentially dangerous idiots, as well a lot of vocal and not dangerous idiots.

I saw/heard of lots of ranting at store staff well before the convoy, and saw some after as well. A few yahoos yelling is not reason to freeze bank accounts..

The police dropped the ball, but there was no threat to Canada sufficient to justify the EA. Downtown Ottawa was severely impacted, just outside the downtown not at all.

 

[suffolkowner]

You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ?

Sounds like it could be a slippery slope.

only if it doesnt apply to firearms than its ok if the province says no. It is a slippery slope but I have confidence that we here and not the foolswe elect can figure it out

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I saw a few vocal and potentially dangerous idiots, as well a lot of vocal and not dangerous idiots.

I saw/heard of lots of ranting at store staff well before the convoy, and saw some after as well. A few yahoos yelling is not reason to freeze bank accounts..

The police dropped the ball, but there was no threat to Canada sufficient to justify the EA. Downtown Ottawa was severely impacted, just outside the downtown not at all.

what about the communities in the area that had a real lack of police because officers were shifted to the Ottawa area to cover off. The Valley was impacted by this. Guess they did not matter

 

[Furniture]

what about the communities in the area that had a real lack of police because officers were shifted to the Ottawa area to cover off. The Valley was impacted by this. Guess they did not matter

They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada.

Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The health of many people in downtown Ottawa was being severely and negatively impacted, and the local authorities were proving to be incapable of dealing with the incident and protecting the citizens.

The problem with accepting that local authorities may prove to be incapable is that there's no apparent hard line preventing anyone from choosing to prove to be incapable. There shouldn't be any back doors for things authorities might find difficult or inconvenient by ordinary means.

When a captain loses his ship, there's an inquiry, and consequences if he was not wholly competent. Maybe we need that for all people in positions of authority - you f*ck it up, your life takes a hard U-turn.

 

[suffolkowner]

They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada.

Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.

are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?

 

[Furniture]

are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?

It does to me. I had thousands of dollars worth of property stolen and received an email saying they may not even investigate, the report may just be used for statistics and trend tracking.

Ottawa has a very low police to population ratio, and it shows if you live in the right neighborhood.