Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[dimsum]

Have to see what effect they have on the food supply.

Reports indicate the big carriers like Day and Ross etc. are not involved.

South-Asian truckers were mentioned up thread, but I read they steered clear of it.

I suspect most truckers are more concerned about wages and benefits, health and safety, working conditions etc.

I live right in the thick of it. Horns have been going pretty much non-stop outside.

I can confirm that the trucks (of which it's a small minority) are not from the major carriers. Some have also covered up company names, but that's an even smaller subset. They seem to be independents.

I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver. Lots of folks in "camouflage" though. But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.

 

[Remius]

So, what you mean to say is that the unvaccinated ARE denied service, you’re just OK with that. Your phraseology is somewhat disengenuous.

I think the basic bone of contention here is the right of government in a free society to mandate specific courses of action and to override an individual’s choices based on their loosely defined definition of the public good. It is perceived as a betrayal of the social contract when, not only does government mandate a specific course of action curtailing freedom of choice, conscience and bodily autonomy, but invokes their own “cancel culture” on anyone who does not comply. Are you a qualified doctor who doesn’t agree? Well, your medical knowledge is worthless, because we said so. Are you concerned about the well-being of your child, and refuse to give consent for vaccination? Well, we’ll suddenly make it legal for 12-year olds to make long-term decisions that could affect their lives in defiance of the parent’s wishes. Shut up and do what you’re told, or you’re out.

If the vaccine were as simple as Smallpox vaccine, then you wouldn’t get this kind of pushback. Take the vaccine, wipe out the contagion, live happily ever after. Most people would agree with that, and the outliers would be such a small portion of society that herd immunity would either apply, or they’d be so unlikely to be affected nobody would care. But people really have an issue being forced to take vaccines against a virus that kills 0.04% of those that contract it, and which isn’t guaranteed to work anyway. People don’t see the point of draconian enforcement when the best it can promise is a “reduction in symptoms”.

The somewhat shaky argument for the case, coupled with radical changes to the historical way we have implemented health mandates, and lots of weasel words and shady practices surrounding the method of enforcement naturally puts people on edge. People do not trust authoritarian leadership, particularly when they are in the business of supressing dissent. People do not trust requests for their “voluntary” compliance based on the threat of societal exclusion. This is a fundamental failure in leadership on behalf of our leaders.

And yet 90% have gotten with the program.

I’ve stated it multiple times. I accept that society will set parameters to be able to participate in said society. People are free to make their choices. And the consequences of said choices. Yes, they can’t eat in. They aren’t being denied a Big Mac combo. They just can’t have it in the restaurant. But they can still have their Big Mac right now. Or actually as of 1 feb in Ontario since we ALL can’t eat in right now.



I’ll be happy when this is over. But sadly it is not. We are getting there but until then the unvaccinated can sit out whatever privileges society normally affords them.

 

[Gunnar]

And yet 90% have gotten with the program.

I’ve stated it multiple times. I accept that society will set parameters to be able to participate in said society. People are free to make their choices. And the consequences of said choices. Yes, they can’t eat in. They aren’t being denied a Big Mac combo. They just can’t have it in the restaurant. But they can still have their Big Mac right now. Or actually as of 1 feb in Ontario since we ALL can’t eat in right now.



I’ll be happy when this is over. But sadly it is not. We are getting there but until then the unvaccinated can sit out whatever privileges society normally affords them.

While I don’t agree with your stance on things, I too will be happy when it is over. I hope something will remain of the country I grew up in. Change is inevitable: You cannot step into the same river twice, but you should be able to guarantee getting wet.

 

[Good2Golf]

As for what the voters decided in 2015,

…added the yellow, not to alter what you quote, but to point out that doing the same thing in 2006 or 2008 or 1993 or 1984, would have led to a differently worded article. I’d like to see a pan-election assessment of the trends of the various metrics touched in in the article. I think it’s not as simple as the way it’s portrayed as being the 2015 election results being the be all to end all.

 

[mariomike]

But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.

What a shame.

 

[PMedMoe]

Is being white, painting yourself black and making monkey noises and acting like a monkey not racist?

Did he? I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.

 

[Winds]

I don’t agree with punitive measures like a health tax or denial of medical service. None of that is in place, just cries from a smaller segment. Quebec has mentioned it but it doesn’t seem to have taken hold elsewhere. So for now it’s talk.

Unvaccinated people are in fact free to travel the country. HOW they do it though is limited by their choice. Unvaccinated people can work for the federal government. They need to meet the conditions of employment.
Unvaccnated people can eat in a restaurant or bar provided they meet the conditions.

None of what you have listed that is being limited is a violation of Rights. Just privileges that need conditions to be met.

With restrictions loosening and return to partial normality yes this is too late. Because as some people have mentioned, the unvaccinated are going to get left behind. Eventually things may go back to the way it was but until we are out of the pandemic that probably won’t happen.

People had a chance to voice their displeasure and remove the PM in the last election. Instead they returned him with a stop mucking around and get back to it mandate. And yeah, I’m sure someone will point out the percentage that actually voted for him. It’s still more than the percentage of people that are anti mandate, anti vax and anti Trudeau. And way more than who is showing up to protest. Just so we are clear I did not vote for the LPC.

So if 10% can demand and end to it why do you think 90% should be ignored? Here is the thing. EVERYONE wants to be done with this. Where people differ is the HOW.

I and a far larger majority disagree with you and the minority about the how. There is some common ground that could be met. I would be in favour of regular testing. I would be in favour of eventual accommodations for certain lines of federal work.

This current protest group sees no middle ground. In fact their message has gotten a little crazy with things like Trudeau stepping down and dissolving government.

Their message has been hijacked and they lost the initiative. There is a press conference today. It will be interesting to see who speaks and what is said.

Remius, well I am glad that you are not in favour of some forms of punitive measures at least.

However, some of your arguments don't seem to make any sense. You said that unvaccinated people are free dine in restaurants, as long as they follow the rules... the law says that you must be vaccinated. So, unvaccinated people are free to do things as long as they are not unvaccinated? You compared this to a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy, those policies are business specific, they are not rules being dictated by the federal government, there is a difference.

While there was some argument for vaccine passports several months ago, given that the data available at the time demonstrated lower risk of infection and spread of the virus amongst fully vaccinated individuals, this is no longer the case. The vaccines protection against catching and spreading the virus was waning to arguably negligible levels before Omicron started to take hold (I've posted links to studies here before) but now there is no statistical reduction in case load amongst the vaccinated. In Ontario, case rates have actually been reported as highest amongst the fully vaccinated for over a month. This makes the argument about being vaccinated to prevent spread pretty much moot. The data simply does not support the theory that vaccination reduces total caseload anymore.

Dataset - Ontario Data Catalogue

covid-19.ontario.ca

The vaccines do prevent hospitalizations and ICU admissions but it is only a small portion of the population that is susceptible to having a severe reaction to the virus in the first place. It is for this reason that Greece's policy on mandatory vaccination is targetted specifically at those over 60 years of age. Workplace mandates primarily target those who are under 60. If the goal of the vaccine passport system (na dtravel restrictions) is to prevent hospitalizations, opposed to reduce viral spread, then why is it that we are not preventig the elderly from travel or dining in restaurants... even if they are vaccinated, they are at significantly higher risk of requiring hospitalization and/or from dying of the virus. Why let the old clug up the medical system, resulting in cancelled surgeries for younger citizens with more potential years of life left? Is the goal better health outcomes for society as a whole, measured in reduced hospital admissions, or is it to punish those that don't fall in line?

I'm not actually advocating for such measures to be placed on citizens based on their age, though I am not the one defending punitive measures designed to "convince" people to make a certain medical decision and stating that they have free choice... the free choice to choose what others want or face the consequences they impose.

 

[Good2Golf]

Did he? I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.

Blackface aping in addition to Aladdin and Belafonte in the one…not that anyone else in the world was noticing Trudeau’s antics…oh, wait…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

"Just a small protest, nothing to see here"

 

[PMedMoe]

Blackface aping in addition to Aladdin and Belafonte in the one…not that anyone else in the world was noticing Trudeau’s antics…oh, wait…

Again, pictures/video without context. High school? Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.

As stated in that video clip, those pictures were out there for everyone to see before the election. Funny how no one noticed cared until the election.

 

[Remius]

Remius, well I am glad that you are not in favour of some forms of punitive measures at least.

However, some of your arguments don't seem to make any sense. You said that unvaccinated people are free dine in restaurants, as long as they follow the rules... the law says that you must be vaccinated. So, unvaccinated people are free to do things as long as they are not unvaccinated? You compared this to a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy, those policies are business specific, they are not rules being dictated by the federal government, there is a difference.

While there was some argument for vaccine passports several months ago, given that the data available at the time demonstrated lower risk of infection and spread of the virus amongst fully vaccinated individuals, this is no longer the case. The vaccines protection against catching and spreading the virus was waning to arguably negligible levels before Omicron started to take hold (I've posted links to studies here before) but now there is no statistical reduction in case load amongst the vaccinated. In Ontario, case rates have actually been reported as highest amongst the fully vaccinated for over a month. This makes the argument about being vaccinated to prevent spread pretty much moot. The data simply does not support the theory that vaccination reduces total caseload anymore.

Dataset - Ontario Data Catalogue

covid-19.ontario.ca

The vaccines do prevent hospitalizations and ICU admissions but it is only a small portion of the population that is susceptible to having a severe reaction to the virus in the first place. It is for this reason that Greece's policy on mandatory vaccination is targetted specifically at those over 60 years of age. Workplace mandates primarily target those who are under 60. If the goal of the vaccine passport system (na dtravel restrictions) is to prevent hospitalizations, opposed to reduce viral spread, then why is it that we are not preventig the elderly from travel or dining in restaurants... even if they are vaccinated, they are at significantly higher risk of requiring hospitalization and/or from dying of the virus. Why let the old clug up the medical system, resulting in cancelled surgeries for younger citizens with more potential years of life left? Is the goal better health outcomes for society as a whole, measured in reduced hospital admissions, or is it to punish those that don't fall in line?

I'm not actually advocating for such measures to be placed on citizens based on their age, though I am not the one defending punitive measures designed to "convince" people to make a certain medical decision and stating that they have free choice... the free choice to choose what others want or face the consequences they impose.

Requiring proof of age is required by law. And no shirt no shoes is still a condition be it gvt mandated or not. Smokers also can’t smoke in restaurants. Conditions of service.

Non gvt employers can choose to have vaccines as mandatory or not. My son’s employer is not enforcing its employees be vaccinated. Mine does but mine is the government.

As I said, conditions of employment or certain service based on health and safety parameters are not violations of rights. Sitting in a. Restaurant is also not a right. You can be asked to leave at any time.

Yes all unvaccinated people have the ability to do all those things as long as they meet the the conditions. Right now that means get jabbed. If not, cool, but no soup for you. Big Macs are still available vis the drive through, Amazon will still deliver to you.

Lots of people would love to just drive a car on the road. But you can’t unless you meet the conditions. No one is forcing anyone to meet those conditions but you have to accept that you won’t be able to do what you want until you do.

As I said, the vaccine is available to everyone. No one is being denied or discriminated against for that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Did he? I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.

There's a video out there too for your viewing pleasure.

In the video, Justin Trudeau is seen for only a few fleeting seconds. There’s no sound. But it is unmistakable what the future Prime Minister of Canada and his pals are doing.

Trudeau’s acting like an ape. Sticking out his tongue, waving around his arms, shuffling around like a simian would, in a zoo or a jungle or something.

I've read accounts elsewhere about making monkey sounds, and I believe shoving bananas down his pants.

 

[Remius]

Again, pictures/video without context. High school? Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.

The same people who complain that the world is too woke are the first to use racism when suits them. But then say they aren’t woke.

TDS.

 

[PMedMoe]

There's a video out there too for your viewing pleasure.

Yes, G2G posted it.

 

[Good2Golf]

Again, pictures/video without context. High school? Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.

As stated in that video clip, those pictures were out there for everyone to see before the election. Funny how no one noticed cared until the election.

Well, for the political Preferatti, things of course are forgiven…but lesser mortals are still held to the historical revisionism judgement.

 

[Remius]

Live feed from right now. Smaller crowd at the prayer thing they held. I imagine given the amount of broken bottles and beer cans some may be sleeping in lol

 

[Winds]

Requiring proof of age is required by law. And no shirt no shoes is still a condition be it gvt mandated or not. Smokers also can’t smoke in restaurants. Conditions of service.

Non gvt employers can choose to have vaccines as mandatory or not. My son’s employer is not enforcing its employees be vaccinated. Mine does but mine is the government.

As I said, conditions of employment or certain service based on health and safety parameters are not violations of rights. Sitting in a. Restaurant is also not a right. You can be asked to leave at any time.

Yes all unvaccinated people have the ability to do all those things as long as they meet the the conditions. Right now that means get jabbed. If not, cool, but no soup for you. Big Macs are still available vis the drive through, Amazon will still deliver to you.

Lots of people would love to just drive a car on the road. But you can’t unless you meet the conditions. No one is forcing anyone to meet those conditions but you have to accept that you won’t be able to do what you want until you do.

As I said, the vaccine is available to everyone. No one is being denied or discriminated against for that.

As I questioned previously, what actual justification do you believe there is for the continuation of these restrictions on citizens based on their vaccination status? What societal benefit is supposed to be achieved? Is it reduced spread of the virus or reduced overall hospitalizations?

As I already stated, if the goal is reduced hospitalizations, then arguably the restrictions should also be applied to those that are most vulnerable to severe complications (the elderly, in particular). Would that more effectively reduce hospitalizations and save lives? You brought up the examples of laws surrounding driving and buying booze, both of these are age-based discrimination... a twelve year old cannot simply decide to buy booze.

If the goal is reduced case counts and spread, the current data does not seem to support that argument.

Or are you arguing that the government shouldn't have to justify the reasons for restricting the individual rights and civil liberties of its citizens? Should it be able to emplace such measures if the prime purpose is to satisfy the demands of their voter support, by punishing those that disagree with the governments recommendations?

 

[PMedMoe]

Well, for the political Preferatti, things of course are forgiven…but lesser mortals are still held to the historical revisionism judgement.

I don't condone what he's done, but I also don't think there's need to bring it up every time someone wants to take a jab at Trudeau.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Live feed from right now. Smaller crowd at the prayer thing they held. I imagine given the amount of broken bottles and beer cans some may be sleeping in lol

View attachment 68364

I quite enjoy buddy with the load of logs there .... Wonder if he is just trying to get to the mill in Gatineau

 

[mariomike]

For readers interested in diversity,

Oct. 31, 2021

Besides meeting the gender parity benchmark Trudeau set, it is also racially diverse (21 per cent), includes a member of the Indigenous community, and three members from the LGBTQ2S+ community.

Opinion | Why do we need a diverse government? Because it’s 2021

The newly appointed federal cabinet for the 44th Parliament was announced earlier this week, and it’s one of the most representative cabinets we have seen thus far. Though there is always room for improvement, this is definitely the way forward.

www.thestar.com

I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver. Lots of folks in "camouflage" though.

Interesting.