Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Good2Golf]

@lenaitch Appreciate your insight, as I do from @brihard. My most inclusive past involvement supporting LEAs was fairly narrow in scope, but I certainly benefitted from insight gained from a wide range of experience from national-provincial-minor LE, and continue to benefit here. I don’t want to imply that s.129 is a panacea, but wished to make the (personal) point that I absolutely disagree with those who make such black-and-white statements that the EA was the ONLY means by which this protest situation could have been resolved. I don’t agree with that position and I have read through the complete Emergencies Act several times. (Aside: I fear that we may see some inappropriately creative interpretations by the GiC of Sections 23-25 for extension of measures to suit the Government’s agenda, whatever that turns out to be…if/when it happens, I won’t shy from reminding folks that those were valid concerns by some, well before the slippery slope was slid down…)

 

[lenaitch]

Under the Canada Labour Code, the operator could refuse unsafe work if they felt sufficiently threatened and could articulate why the police could not guarantee their safety for the entirety of the task (e.g. from the point of tow to the impound yard to their shop, all billable distance and time).

Some civilian tow truck operators removed their company names from their vehicles for the task. My son is a heavy truck mechanic in Ottawa and was able to recognize them on the news nonetheless. I suppose the protesters could have, too.

Also, I recall that the OPP have a number of officers trained in heavy recovery. My son was looking into combining his mechanic's ticket with a career in policing.

As far as I know, a handful, but the skills were brought along from a previous life; I'm not aware that they specifically train them or keep them current. Their would be no need since recovery is private industry.

Your son would likely be interested in the Commercial Vehicle units which do inspections and are called in as SMEs for serious incidents involved heavy commercial vehicles. Numbers aren't huge though. It's a bit of an odd situation in Ontario (and probably every other province) where the primary enforcement responsibility is the MTO (unlike many US states where the state police are responsible). The OPP got more deeply involved - my opinion only - under the 'highway safety' mandate and the fact that the MTO enforcement capability/willingness/ budget is pretty lame.

 

[Altair]

@lenaitch Appreciate your insight, as I do from @brihard. My most inclusive past involvement supporting LEAs was fairly narrow in scope, but I certainly benefitted from insight gained from a wide range of experience from national-provincial-minor LE, and continue to benefit here. I don’t want to imply that s.129 is a panacea, but wished to make the (personal) point that I absolutely disagree with those who make such black-and-white statements that the EA was the ONLY means by which this protest situation could have been resolved. I don’t agree with that position and I have read through the complete Emergencies Act several times. (Aside: I fear that we may see some inappropriately creative interpretations by the GiC of Sections 23-25 for extension of measures to suit the Government’s agenda, whatever that turns out to be…if/when it happens, I won’t shy from reminding folks that those were valid concerns by some, well before the slippery slope was slid down…)

And if/when they do not, I'm sure you wont be shy in saying that these fears were unfounded?

 

[Good2Golf]

As far as I know, a handful, but the skills were brought along from a previous life; I'm not aware that they specifically train them or keep them current. Their would be no need since recovery is private industry.

Your son would likely be interested in the Commercial Vehicle units which do inspections and are called in as SMEs for serious incidents involved heavy commercial vehicles. Numbers aren't huge though. It's a bit of an odd situation in Ontario (and probably every other province) where the primary enforcement responsibility is the MTO (unlike many US states where the state police are responsible). The OPP got more deeply involved - my opinion only - under the 'highway safety' mandate and the fact that the MTO enforcement capability/willingness/ budget is pretty lame.

A good friend did exactly that @lenaitch, OPP Aux and MTO Class A mechanic, transferred fully
to OPP proper, and finished as a Level-3 TTCI doing commercial and hwy work before retiring. I did numerous ride alongside with him, and saw the smug look on shady truckers’ faces disappear after my friend would come back to the cruiser and get his orange coveralls and snap-on creeper and walk back to their truck. He would tell them, “Congratulations! You just ran into one of just three Class-A certified OPP Constables fully authorized to conduct MTO-inspections…” The truckers weren’t smiling for long, once he had finished his inspection, taken their plates and impounded the truck & trailer.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not going to plant my flag on whether or not the EA was required, but it strikes me that the one thing it enabled was the bringing in of several existing federal, provincial and muncipal authorities under one umbrella, including:

• The police apparently set up check points around the Red Zone and controlled vehicular traffic to residents/business owners/employees only. I'm not sure they otherwise have that blanket authority.
• It seems to have authorized the SQ to operate west of the river (the current authority in the CC is, in my opinion, really choppy).
• It clarified the towing of vehicles, rather than under some HTA/bylaw authority.

 

[Good2Golf]

All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue. I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’ I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…

 

[Haggis]

I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…

I would like to draw your attention to post 3210. It seems to have already started.

 

[lenaitch]

A good friend did exactly that @lenaitch, OPP Aux and MTO Class A mechanic, transferred fully
to OPP proper, and finished as a Level-3 TTCI doing commercial and hwy work before retiring. I did numerous ride alongside with him, and saw the smug look on shady truckers’ faces disappear after my friend would come back to the cruiser and get his orange coveralls and snap-on creeper and walk back to their truck. He would tell them, “Congratulations! You just ran into one of just three Class-A certified OPP Constables fully authorized to conduct MTO-inspections…” The truckers weren’t smiling for long, once he had finished his inspection, taken their plates and impounded the truck & trailer.

Glad it worked out for him/her. I've always thought a little dodgy for someone to join a police service with a singular narrow goal (not saying yours is the case). You still have to want to do the job writ large because its a few years to 'eventually', plus the other factors that might intervene over time. No doubt the same as in the military.

 

[Quirky]

The poll and its methodology is here,

• https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1645151885613/Shaken+to+the+core+18+02+22.pdf

What got my attention was the statistics.

These are some of the findings from a study released by Maru Public Opinion undertaken by its sample and data collection experts at Maru/Blue February 14-15, 2022, among a random selection of 1518 Canadian adults who are Maru Voice Canada panelists

Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Last month I would have laughed at someone suggesting Canadians would have their bank accounts frozen based off of analytics from the CBC.

To be fair, we don't know how much police/int work was done by who.

People were confused at how and why it took 4 weeks to do anything about the protests Ottawa protests. Then confused at why the EA was the only solution. I think it's pretty easy to connect the dots.

Bang on re: the link (or lack of) between "what can get done now?" vs. "what can get done under EA?" - at least on the visible policing/enforcement front.

Meanwhile, "Freedom George" is busted - usual caveats re: presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process...

News and Media - Ottawa Police Service

www.ottawapolice.ca

 

[Remius]

All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue. I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’ I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…

My flag is firmly in the “not required” camp despite my not agreeing with the protesters cause, their subsequent unlawful protest and hoping that they get what they deserve.

But I have to agree that if Trudeau was willing to use the EA and actually gain support as a result, I don’t think he’ll hesitate to make that same cost benefit analysis again and use it as it suits him.

 

[lenaitch]

All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue. I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’ I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…

As am I. I still maintain the roots lie in a failure of decisive leadership and/or failure to recognize intelligence at the outset that allowed them to become entrenched. Police services, moreso than governments, tend to be better at learning from mistakes, their own and others'. The challenges are consistency and convincing civilian oversight that the Constitutional lines have been crossed and it's now their ball.

I'm not sure we have to get back to the 'whack 'em and stack 'em' days of old, or the indiscriminate use water cannons and tear gas like we see in other places, but we do have to recognize that the world has changed; this is no longer hippies sitting cross-legged in the street singing.

I have confidence that any legislative attempt to allow greater access or control to things like financial records without judicial oversight won't pass the sniff test of the courts.

 

[Good2Golf]

Gald it worked out for him/her. I've always thought a little dodgy for someone to join a police service with a singular narrow goal (not saying yours is the case). You still have to want to do the job writ large because its a few years to 'eventually', plus the other factors that might intervene over time. No doubt the same as in the military.

He had a solid 5-6 years of PC general duty before he entered the TTCI program.

 

[daftandbarmy]

To be fair, we don't know how much police/int work was done by who.

Bang on re: the link (or lack of) between "what can get done now?" vs. "what can get done under EA?" - at least on the visible policing/enforcement front.

More proof, if needed, that bad leadership can create ugly situations.

And it's not like no one knew about that.... from last year:

Internal survey reveals decline in officer job satisfaction within Ottawa police​

Slightly more than half of employees filled out survey from Ottawa Police Service​

An internal survey of Ottawa police officers shows limited satisfaction in their police service, a lack of accountability for poor performance and poor conduct, and a continued culture of fear of reporting the behaviour of their own colleagues.

Results of the "member survey," which was funded by the Ottawa Police Service (OPS), were made public this week as part of a series of budget-related consultations. Few questions in the member survey had to do with resources as it focused on gauging demographics in the service and general attitudes about the workplace.

Just 56 per cent of police employees filled out the survey and those behind it called that "substantially below most large organizations," but "a respectable level and should raise no concerns about reliability or validity of results."

The survey was also conducted in 2020 during what survey-creators called the "broader context of recent social protests, COVID-19 pandemic, tension (between the service and the rank-and-file's Ottawa Police Association) and a period of transition for the policing sector."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-satisfaction-decline-ops-internal-survey-1.6221642

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Alberta is stepping into the mix with a Challenge to the EMA

Alberta challenging federal Emergencies Act against protesters in court: Kenney​

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said the province will be filing a court challenge against the federal government’s invocation of the Emergency Act meant to help handle the Convoy protests across Canada.

In a video posted to Twitter Saturday, Kenney said the measure is redundant and “doesn’t make sense.”

“The Emergencies Act is an unnecessary and disproportionate measure that can violate civil liberties, invades provincial jurisdiction and creates a very dangerous precedent for the future,” he said. “Provincial law enforcement authorities are able to deal with illegal road blockades.”

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said the province will be filing a court challenge against the federal government’s invocation of the Emergency Act meant to help handle the Convoy protests across Canada.

In a video posted to Twitter Saturday, Kenney said the measure is redundant and “doesn’t make sense.”


“The Emergencies Act is an unnecessary and disproportionate measure that can violate civil liberties, invades provincial jurisdiction and creates a very dangerous precedent for the future,” he said. “Provincial law enforcement authorities are able to deal with illegal road blockades.”

CityNews

vancouver.citynews.ca

 

[mariomike]

Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.

Methodology explained here. Take it or leave it.

Methodology

These are some of the findings from a study released by Maru Public Opinion undertaken by its sample and data collection experts at Maru/Blue February 14-15, 2022, among a random selection of 1518 Canadian adults who are Maru Voice Canada panelists. The results were weighted by education, age, gender, and region (and in Quebec, language) to match the population, according to Census data. For comparison purposes, a probability sample of this size has an estimated margin of error (which measures sampling variability) of +/- 2.5%, 19 times out of 20. Further details may be found at Canadian Public Opinion Polls | Maru Group

The results have been weighted by education, age, gender, and region (and in Quebec, language) to match the population according to Census data which ensures the sample is representative of the entire adult population of Canada. Discrepancies in or between totals when compared to the data tables are due to rounding. Panel and data services provider Maru Blue is deeply rooted in the Maru/HUB technology platform and offers on-demand, high quality, highly scalable online community samples of deeply engaged, known respondents. Respondents could respond in either English or French. Excerpts from this release of findings should be properly attributed, with interpretation subject to clarification or correction. Maru Public Opinion is a professional services firm dedicated to improving its clients' business outcomes. It delivers its services through teams of sector-specific research consultants specializing in the use of Insight Community and Voice of Market technology.

Maru Public Opinion does not do any work for any political party. Maru Public Opinion polls with supporting detailed tables are found here: Maru Public Opinion Canada. Corporate information can be found here: Maru Group

Latest Canadian Public Opinion Polls | Maru Group — Maru Group

Public opinion polling of the known respondents in our panel communities on timely issues within Canada, from the public policy and industry experts at Maru Group.

www.marugroup.net

I'm not even sure the TTC or GO Transit have their own heavy wreckers.

TTC does not, having been towed into their shops.

 

[MilEME09]

False reports of woman's death at Ottawa protest example of misinformation, say police

Ottawa police say a false report of a trampling death amid the police operation to clear 'Freedom Convoy' protesters from Ottawa streets Friday is an example of the misinformation that has been spread throughout the three-week demonstration.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

And this is why you shouldn't trust vetted sources at face value

 

[Altair]

Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.

Maru federal election polling

CPC 33

LPC 29

NDP 21

BQ 8

GRN 7

PPC 2

They seem pretty accurate to me.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm not going to plant my flag on whether or not the EA was required, but it strikes me that the one thing it enabled was the bringing in of several existing federal, provincial and muncipal authorities under one umbrella, including:

• The police apparently set up check points around the Red Zone and controlled vehicular traffic to residents/business owners/employees only. I'm not sure they otherwise have that blanket authority.
• It seems to have authorized the SQ to operate west of the river (the current authority in the CC is, in my opinion, really choppy).
• It clarified the towing of vehicles, rather than under some HTA/bylaw authority.

I think that's why the debate in Parliament really needs to happen; there may be some very specific things that they needed to happen in the NCR that required a federal mandate to sort out the cross-provincial jurisdiction issues. The NCR is really weird, and hopefully this will get some movement on the provinces to have some kind of official agreements in place to do things like this.

Freezing people's accounts without some kind of court order is pretty worrying though, maybe the EA should be amended to have options to call up only sections of it vice the entire thing so it's a lot more transparent what they are doing when they invoke it. Even if that is done via some kind of OIC that's not publicly available then it's there for shaping the 'ROE' of the application, as well as the eventual inquiry.

Cannot wait for the next municipal election though, there is a whole cadre of Watson cronies that need to go for the LRT debacle alone that similarly crapped the bed here. The head office at the OPS has been a mess for a while, no surprise that the survey results came back like that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

To offer another taste from the "survey says" stew pot ...

Loading... | iPolitics

ipolitics.ca

Howazit done?

The analysis in this report is based on results of a survey conducted from February 16th-17th, 2022 among a sample of 1323 adults, 18 years of age or older, living in Canada. The survey was conducted using automated telephone interviews (Smart IVR). Respondents were interviewed on landlines and cellular phones. The survey is intended to represent the voting population in Canada. The margin of error for the poll is +/- 2.7% at the 95% confidence level. Margins of error are higher in each subsample ...

Breakdown of "who I'd vote for" of those who participated in the automated survey here

All the details also attached in PDF