Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Remius]

I am not a lawyer. That said, I'm thinking that quoting the US First Amendment in a bail hearing in Ottawa is probably not making you look like a viable option as a surety for your spouse.

I'm betting defence lawyers will be using this to teach clients what not to do for years.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1495084817486131209

https://twitter.com/x/status/1495086136288493577

https://twitter.com/x/status/1495079186712645641

This is just as painful to read. Access to a private jet isn’t going to help you get bail i think…

 

[Kirkhill]

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[Humphrey Bogart]

It is kind of neat watching the French and German police practice their crowd control skills, tear gas, water cannons, batons and all.

Of course they get a lot of practice. Fortunately our police don't have nearly as much experience. I hope it stays that way.

The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.

These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status.

 

[Jarnhamar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1495079186712645641

This is just as painful to read. Access to a private jet isn’t going to help you get bail i think…

Umar Zameer allegedly killed a Toronto police officer and was released on bail. Conspiracy to commit mischief and I'm assuming a clean record is hardly a reason to deny someone bail.

 

[Remius]

Umar Zameer allegedly killed a Toronto police officer and was released on bail. Conspiracy to commit mischief and I'm assuming a clean record is hardly a reason to deny someone bail.

I think the issue is her husband providing surety. He seems a bit…off.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That's BS, Bruce. There is a distinct difference between an aimed less-lethal round causing an injury than the almost certain hypothermia when you soak people with water cannons in the middle of winter in Canada.

You lost me sunshine......are you saying they sprayed the protesters?? All I was giving was the term we used in Corrections if something that shouldn't have happened happened. "Unintended consequences".......pepper spray shouldn't kill you, but it can. Breaking a bone shouldn't kill you, but it can, so I have no idea WTF you mean by your post.

You can make it up by plunging here though [shameless Special Olympic plug] https://polarplunge.ca/locations/?f...P-HRiTIcAUtX6Mm4kYQeuyjBlDX40VavVaYw#waterloo

 

[The Bread Guy]

The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.

These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status ...

Like the Italian Carabinieri, cops whose org chart (often) tops out at the Minister of Defence.

 

[PuckChaser]

You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.

Water again?? Did I miss something???

 

[PuckChaser]

You're being deliberately obtuse and just trolling.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Have water cannons ever been used in sub-zero temperatures? You don’t even need a lot of pressure, people would leave after hypothermia sets in.

"After hypothermia sets in"? I suspect that you don't have much knowledge about cold injuries. Hypothermia is not "being cold", it is a medical emergency. And it doesn't have to be in freezing temperatures; the first hypothermia casualty that I attended was a US Marine (actually, there was more than one) during an exercise on Vancouver Island in September (over 40 years ago).

As for using water in crowd control, this is probably the most recent (well publicized) use in freezing temps. I know the Germans used to use water cannons quite a bit, but weather wasn't usually an extenuating factor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/21/police-citing-ongoing-riot-use-water-cannons-on-dakota-access-protesters-in-freezing-weather/

Police defend use of water cannons on Dakota Access protesters in freezing weather​

November 21, 2016

Authorities on Monday defended their decision to douse protesters with water during a skirmish in subfreezing weather near the Dakota Access oil pipeline, and organizers said at least 17 protesters were taken to the hospital — including some who were treated for hypothermia.

Protesters trying to push past a long-blocked bridge on a state highway late Sunday and early Monday were turned back by authorities using tear gas, rubber bullets and water hoses.

Tensions over the Dakota Access oil pipeline flared again Sunday when North Dakota law enforcement used water cannons to disperse a group of about 400 protesters trying to move past a barricaded bridge toward construction sites for the project. As temperatures in Cannon Ball, N.D., dropped into the 20s, police in riot gear sprayed activists with a hose mounted atop an armored vehicle and formed a line to prevent them from advancing up the road, according to the Bismarck Tribune. Protesters also reported being pelted with rubber bullets, tear gas and concussion grenades during the standoff, which lasted until late Sunday night.

. . .

One of the protest organizers, Dallas Goldtooth, said protesters started small fires in the area to help warm people who had been sprayed with water in the freezing cold. At least 17 protesters were injured severely enough to be taken to hospitals, Goldtooth said, according to the Associated Press.

. . .

Organizers said the Cannon Ball gym was being used for emergency relief, with medics from the Standing Rock Sioux and Cheyenne River Sioux tribes treating people who were injured in the standoff. Physicians and tribal healers with the Standing Rock Medic and Healer Council called on authorities to stop using water cannons against the protesters, saying the below-freezing weather could cause hypothermia and criticizing the “potentially lethal use of these controversial methods against people peacefully assembled,” CNN reported.

. . .

The sheriff’s department said that water cannons were brought in to control the crowds and extinguish fires set by protesters.

“There are multiple fires being set by protesters on the bridge and in the area of the bridge,” department spokeswoman Donnell Hushka told CNN. “We have firetrucks on the scene. They are using their fire hoses to put out the fires, wet the land around so fires don’t spread, and they are also using water as crowd control.”

. . .

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You're being deliberately obtuse and just trolling.

Seriously I'm not....I have no idea where you went, or are going, with this. You brought up spraying water to my post about 'the term "unintended consequences".....I have no idea why.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.

Capability-Proximity-Intent

Closing that threat triangle will determine whether/what Force will be used.

The force response option selected must also be proportional to the threat faced.

If a crowd is aggressively attacking a Police Line, and throwing molotov cocktails, sure a water cannon would definitely be warranted but we aren't seeing that here.

People being a nuisance isn't a reason to use a water cannon.

 

[Kirkhill]

The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.

These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status.

And my wish is that we continue to be "British" and never feel the need to engage that kind of Standing Army.

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[Haggis]

Capability-Proximity-Intent

Closing that threat triangle will determine whether/what Force will be used.

The force response option selected must also be proportional to the threat faced.

If a crowd is aggressively attacking a Police Line, and throwing molotov cocktails, sure a water cannon would definitely be warranted but we aren't seeing that here.

People being a nuisance isn't a reason to use a water cannon.

Certain response options being discussed here have second order effects.

Using a water cannon, for example, on a hilly Ottawa street in winter where the police now have to follow up by advancing uphill is unwise.

Deploying tear gas in today's windy conditions poses a risk to innocent bystanders support personnel, and local residents. Not to mention the joys of having the police masked for long periods in winter.

 

[Brad Sallows]

As far as I'm concerned the end game here is to develop the ability to break up crowds efficiently.

Not so much efficiently as consistently - as in, application of criteria for responding and application of response measures. Also, a lot of restraint. All of the talk permeating everything governments do about valuing life and limb and all the things we do to avoid risk is just so much babble if we so easily reach a point where people start to say, "Fuck 'em/FAFO/Stupid games, stupid prizes" etc.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.

The first question the AAR should ask:

How did we go from a late January "this is just a fringe movement" and will disappear as quickly as it came to "we need to enact the Emergencies Act".

The second question the AAR should ask:

What can we do as a Nation to ensure this never happens again?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Certain response options being discussed here have second order effects.

Using a water cannon, for example, on a hilly Ottawa street in winter where the police now have to follow up by advancing uphill is unwise.

Deploying tear gas in today's windy conditions poses a risk to innocent bystanders support personnel, and local residents. Not to mention the joys of having the police masked for long periods in winter.

Exactly, I imagine all the downtown condo owners, business owners, workers, etc would really enjoy having tear gas residue coating their balconies, storefronts, etc

 

[MilEME09]

I think the issue is her husband providing surety. He seems a bit…off.

Doesn't matter much when you can't post bail cause your accounts are frozen

 

[Good2Golf]

What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.

The first question the AAR should ask:

How did we go from a late January "this is just a fringe movement" and will disappear as quickly as it came to "we need to enact the Emergencies Act".

The second question the AAR should ask:

What can we do as a Nation to ensure this never happens again?

Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR? Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes? Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…