France Burning

[GO!!!]

For crowds, I would prefer my piece of precision machinery from Luciano Benelli  >

 

[TCBF]

I can't believe none of the car-burners have been nulled by the car owners.  I guess the only real men left in France are rioting.  The Germans may have weakened the French national gene pool much more than expected.

Tom

 

[Kirkhill]

Good news.  BBC is reporting that France is back to normal.

French violence 'back to normal' 

The violence has cost $230m, insurers say
French police say levels of violence in France have returned to normal, following three weeks of unrest by urban youths across the country.
Police said 98 vehicles were torched on Wednesday night, marking a "return to a normal situation everywhere in France".

A state of emergency remains in force after parliament voted on Wednesday to extend it for three months.

Almost 9,000 cars have been set ablaze and about 3,000 people have been arrested since the violence erupted.

Curfew lifted

The police service said the figure of 98 cars burnt was in line with the nightly average before the trouble began on 27 October.

At the height of the violence, more than 1,400 vehicles were destroyed in a single night.

Authorities in the Rhone region, which covers Lyon and nearby south-eastern towns, lifted a curfew on minors after just eight cars were destroyed overnight.

The state of emergency, which was first declared on 9 November, allows local authorities to impose curfews, conduct house-to-house searches and ban public gatherings. The violence spread from Paris across French towns and cities, mostly in areas with a high concentration of ethnic minorities.

Residents of housing estates, where unemployment can reach 40%, complain of racism and heavy-handed policing.

The riots began when two boys of North and West African origin were electrocuted in a Paris suburb after running from police, believing they were being chased.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4445428.stm


To be fair to clasper - this may explain a certain degree of insouciance, or sang froid on the part of the French.  On a normal night 100 cars go up in flames in France.

On the other hand here in Vancouver our "youth" take them for joyrides.

 

[TCBF]

I am still amazed 9000 cars were burned and not a single arsonist got slotted for his troubles.  Or: are these termites burning their own cars and stiffing the rich white insurance companies for a few thousand francs?

Tom

 

[clasper]

are these termites burning their own cars and stiffing the rich white insurance companies for a few thousand francs?

Tom

I think there's a lot of that going on.  A buddy of mine accidentally broke his rear window a couple of weeks ago, and then had his car broken into and his GPS stolen a couple of days ago.  He said the insurance process was pretty bureaucratic (this is France, after all) but it was also much more forgiving than back home (he's Chinese) or in the US.  No fights to explain how this happened, or why insurance should cover it- just fill out this mound of paperwork, take your loaner Renault, and we'll have it fixed for you in a couple of weeks.

Good news.  BBC is reporting that France is back to normal.

Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.  We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).  Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.

 

[Jungle]

Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.   We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).   Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.

That is called "The cold Peace" !!!

 

[GO!!!]

Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.   We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).   Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.

I guess they will just have to retire to their government supplied housing, and draw their (highest in the world) welfare cheques until spring, when they will undoubtedly feel the need to "outwardly express their rage and indignation".

"you want a job tough guy?" - "bienvenue a Legion Etranger"  - this should solve all of their young problems, an outlet for their energy, a job, opportunity to travel - I think I've solved France's problems - just take all of the people that will fight out of the country!

 

[paracowboy]

I think I've solved France's problems - just take all of the people that will fight out of the country!

that happened in the mid-forties when the Wermacht were driven out.

That's right...I went there.  ;D

 

[GO!!!]

Why did the French plant trees along the Champs de Elysses? (spelling, I know)

So the Germans could march in the shade!

Why did they build the Arc de Triomphe?

So the germans would'nt have to do it themselves!

 

[paracowboy]

Thank you, folks! You've been a great crowd! We're here all week. Remember to tip your serving staff.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[GO!!!]

Minister says polygamy to blame for riots
PARIS, Nov. 16 (UPI) -- France's employment minister, Gerard Larcher, blames 20 nights of rioting in the country on African Muslim immigrants' polygamy.

Speaking to reporters, Larcher said large polygamous families sometimes led to anti-social behavior among youths who lacked a father figure, making employers wary of hiring ethnic minorities, the Financial Times reported.

While polygamy is illegal in France, visas were granted to family members of immigrants until 1993, when visas were banned for more than one spouse. Now, government officials estimate there are 10,000-20,000 polygamous families in France, most from North and sub-Saharan African countries such as Algeria, Mali and Senegal, where the practice is legal.

The nightly fires and running battles with police throughout the country have been blamed on high unemployment and poverty in immigrant neighborhoods, but Larcher said immigrants had to take some responsibility.

"Since part of society displays this anti-social behavior, it is not surprising that some of them have difficulties finding work," he said.
source http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051116-110739-7141r

So two influential French politicians are sitting around, stitching white flags for the army and chatting;

" hmm, the immigrants we were too gutless to oppose have stopped rioting - lets call them bastards and insult their mothers - that should smooth things over! "

Brilliant.

 

[Zartan]

Hey, Hey! This is France - they include the tip in the bill!

But while you're here, je voudrais les chardonnay, monsieur. S'il vous plait?

And now for the aftermath! HOoRay
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051119-12593300-bc-france-ethnicstats.xml
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-16T102246Z_01_SCH575800_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS-POLYGAMY.xml

 

[Slim]

Hey, Hey! This is France - they include the tip in the bill!

But while you're here, je voudrais les chardonnay, monsieur. S'il vous plait?

And now for the aftermath! HOoRay
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051119-12593300-bc-france-ethnicstats.xml
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-16T102246Z_01_SCH575800_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS-POLYGAMY.xml

Well...Northern Ireland from the '50's to the late '90's was much much worse. This kind of seems like little league compared to some trouble spots around the globe.

Cheers

Slim

 

[Zartan]

Definately - I agree entirely. But, I think there is potential for it to have become oh so much worse. One may never now if a terror cell was activating during the riots, for instance - whip up the rioters, commit more extreme acts of violence, etc. To me, France got off lucky, or so it would seem - there have been deadlier riots over soccer games, concerts, and championships than this. It was managed to be limited mostly to automobile immolation, and it would seem that no real conflict has arose between the imigrants and the Frenchmen, just the riots.

However, much can happen with the passing of time, and much will. I don't believe it is over yet - the fire is dead, but embers remain alight. While most will fade in the coming days and weeks, I feel that these events may have influensed some members of the French Muslim community towards a far more dangerous path. We shall see.

 

[1feral1]

I don't believe it is over yet - the fire is dead, but embers remain alight. While most will fade in the coming days and weeks, I feel that these events may have influensed some members of the French Muslim community towards a far more dangerous path. We shall see.

Not only in France, as this has had shockwaves sent even to the muslim ghettos (sorry but thats what they are) of western Sydney and also in in Melbourne. The continuing growing resentment of our government by many muslims, the recent terrorist gang arrests (this has sent many muslim youths and others almost into a feeding frenzy against the government- many local clerics are warning us that they cannot stop this turning tide should the government carry out more arrests and continue to enforce the new anti-terr laws), and finally, the serious beginning of a lack of tolerance by maistream Christian Aussies, should they (the extremists) take their anger one step further (we just had a very close call and were just lucky this time).   Lets hope we can keep this growing hatred of the west and western values from growing into some kind of an nightmare on our own soil. Sadly our PM still says that an attack on Australia and the murder of innocent Australians is inevitable. Thats scarey!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[54/102 CEF]

A friend just came back from a quick trip to Paris

He said the car burning is a French Ritual - been at a lower level for years

The scam is

Finance a car

Burn it before the end of the year

get a cheque -

Disappear

Insurance companies can`t blanket refuse certain ethnic origins.........

I imagine "insurance invesitgoator" is a growth trend for 2nd career types

 

[Dare]

That's all I've seen so for.  Burning vehicles, destruction of public property, and confrontations with police isn't really treason, is it?  We've seen it before in Canada (remember Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup?) - maybe not to the extent of France, but definately within the same order of magnitude (general unrest).  Unless you're going to prove thier is some sort of AQ generated plot to destroy France from the inside, spare us the conspiracy theories.

Have you heard what these Generic Rioters are chanting and saying amongst eachother as they Generically Riot Due To "Economic Conditions And Because White French People Are Racist(tm)"? It indeed does sound like a Jihadist conspiracy theory. Just not so obvious to those who perpetuate the idea that they are almost legitimate in their behaviour.

For the record, you will notice I said "Daniel H" and not "Dare".

You used plural, so I just wanted to set the record straight either way. No worries.

Well, being violently hostile to the Canadian government is covered under the CCC; Section 46 to be exact.  If I or any other Canadian citizen commits the offence, then it is Canada's duty to deal with it.  I do not see the logic in your differentiation and you seem to have sidestepped an answer - if I, who am now loyal to Canada and identify myself as a Canadian suddenly become violently hostile to it, do I as second generation deserve deportation for my crimes?  How about the other side of my family which happens to be 5th generation?  What is appropriate for deporting people who really have nowhere legally to be deported to?  1st?  2nd?  5th generation?  If you are born in Canada and are a Canadian citizen, you are Canada's problem - it is not like the American government figured they should deport John Walker Lind when they captured him.  They tried, convicted, and imprisoned him within America because he was an American citizen; his time or "generation" in America was irrelevent to the case.

If you are violently hostile to the country you are in, and bare loyalties to a foreign power, perhaps deportation is a civilized remedy. As for 5th generation, I don't know. I can't say I have a solution for everything, but I don't think that getting locked in a stalemate akin to the West Bank is a good idea. For any country.

Besides, do we really want to send them back to Pakistan or where ever they happen to be from?  If you are an enemy to Canada, sending you back to the arms of your enemies isn't the best thing to do, no?  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer seems apt.  If the Khadr children (if they are Canadian) are indeed guilty (we should let due process and not the National Post decide that) then I'm more than happy of giving them cold cells and letting Mr Monkhouse take care of them.  If the parent, as a naturalized Canadian, is indicted of treason then I see good cause to revoke citizenship - Ms Khadr can head back to Palestine at any time.

Well that seems to have been the former plan of British Intelligence, pre-bombing. I suspect that they may have realized that the vehicle through which they sought entry into the world of Islamic fanaticism has been overrun by quantity and determination. Shortly after the bombing occured, dozens of Islamic websites were destroyed. Policies change. Keeping your enemies close is one thing, but allowing them to plot and infiltrate in your midst, is another. The UK disallowed Germans to immigrate to their country during WW2. Perhaps there will be another shift. Letting our enemies mass is not always a bad idea. Especially since we are so much better on that plane.

B.T.W, painting with that broad-brush (as you like to call it). I don't read the National Post. And "due process" doesn't always meet justice. That is indeed why the media is a useful tool. Sometimes "due process" needs some public scrutiny and input.

It seems that martial law has been declared in some parts of France and the police have stepped it up a notch.  I'm against the idea of deportation because it seems foolhardy to deport somebody when their birthplace and legal residence has been Canada.  Backing up martial law with lethal force, if required, is appropriate to me in order to preserve Peace, Order and Good Government.  It is up to Canada to deal with Canadian citizens in a manner consistent with the rule of law.

I think the question is, does a person declaring loyalty to a state or nation that we are at war with constitute a renunciation of citizenship? If not, why not? Considering that the affinity for actually enforcing treason and sedition laws is not common place there must be a better method than getting into the "rock throwing" stalemate with people that hate the country they are in.

By the way, "France Burning" seems to be an overstatement.  They had some footage on the news at the Eiffel Tower that showed tourists doing the tourist thing and all things normal in metro Paris.  "France Burning" seems to be the same as "America Drowning" during Hurricane Katrina - it's probably a bit of an overstatement of what's going on on the ground.

Certainly, but I didn't pick the title. Perhaps it could be changed to, "Proportionally small bits of France are Burning! But it's way bigger than most riots!"

Frankly, though, if this occured in Canada, I doubt that there would be the same responses I see in here.

(*Waiting for the inevitable "It Can't Happen Here!"*)

 

[clasper]

Have you heard what these Generic Rioters are chanting and saying amongst eachother as they Generically Riot Due To "Economic Conditions And Because White French People Are Racist(tm)"? It indeed does sound like a Jihadist conspiracy theory.

And I'll turn that question around: have you heard what the rioters are chanting and saying amongst each other?  The media reporting on this issue has been spotty and quite partisan.  FoxNews sees jihadist conspiracies, and Al-Jazeera sees the French aristocracy pissing on the poor Muslims.  The truth, as always, is somewhere in between and much more complicated.  People have looked at these riots and seen what they wanted to see.  Come to France, live here a while, and you'll see something different.

I can't say I have a solution for everything, but I don't think that getting locked in a stalemate akin to the West Bank is a good idea.

We are an incredibly long way away from a West Bank type stalemate.  Some vehicles and other property were burnt.  Some minor thuggery resulted in one death.  There were no suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc.  I don't think what happened here could be classified as terrorism.  Certainly any Frenchman I talked to about it was far from terrorized.

I think the question is, does a person declaring loyalty to a state or nation that we are at war with constitute a renunciation of citizenship?

The rioters weren't trying to destroy France- they just wanted to poke a stick into the eye of the government.  Vehicles, a few stores, and a couple of schools were burnt down.  No one burnt down city hall, or made an obvious display of attacking the government.  As has been pointed out in this thread previously, torching cars is something of a national sport here- it is not an indication of a jihadist conspiracy to create Gaulistan.

Frankly, though, if this occured in Canada, I doubt that there would be the same responses I see in here.

(*Waiting for the inevitable "It Can't Happen Here!"*)

Of course it could happen in Canada, it's just less likely.  The response of the French government was essentially:
1) ignore it and hope it will go away
2) make wishy-washy statements asking for calm
3) allow the cold weather to dampen the enthusiasm of the rioters
4) eventually impose curfews and martial law where required

I don't see the probable response of the Canadian government to be substantially different.

In terms of the public response if similar riots were to occur in Canada, I again don't see too much difference- people will see what they want to see, whether it's really there or not.

 

[geo]

Remember when the "natives" got restless?.... Oka isn't all that long ago.
The gov't was about to permit contruction on land that the Native population felt was their land - the natives responded the way they always respond AND the gov't responded by sending in the SQ to force submission by the natives.
The inevitable happened - it's a wonder that only one SQ constable found his way to the "happy hunting grounds".
By some fluke of luck, the Quebec Gov't got it right, figured Natives = federal responsibility and asked for Federal response... the CF were deployed and problems were contained.... Whew!!!

 

[Dare]

And I'll turn that question around: have you heard what the rioters are chanting and saying amongst each other?  The media reporting on this issue has been spotty and quite partisan.  FoxNews sees jihadist conspiracies, and Al-Jazeera sees the French aristocracy pissing on the poor Muslims.  The truth, as always, is somewhere in between and much more complicated.  People have looked at these riots and seen what they wanted to see.  Come to France, live here a while, and you'll see something different.

I only wish I could one day watch Fox News. I did not first hear of it on Fox News. After being accused of parroting it so often. I have seen video of a few different groupings. I am sure, that perhaps, one could view that in some way that is different. Just as I could tell you that this website is not green but purple. That doesn't make that observation correct. Nor is it true that it is somewhere between green and purple. The truth is the truth. It is always my primary source. It was not Al-Jazeera that solely saw that, it was 99% of world media. Fox News being in the minority, obviously. I've been fond of the underdogs most of my life. Just these days the great underdogs of the world are portrayed as the nemesis of humanity.

We are an incredibly long way away from a West Bank type stalemate.  Some vehicles and other property were burnt.  Some minor thuggery resulted in one death.  There were no suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc.  I don't think what happened here could be classified as terrorism.  Certainly any Frenchman I talked to about it was far from terrorized.

This riot was widely dispersed, organized and effective. It seems to me to be just a first wave. The rock throwing (a staple of any angry-young-man demonstration) did have similarities. That and the slogan of "This is Baghdad". Perhaps many that you know were not fearful of the oncoming troubles. I will bet you, though, that many were. We will see the results in the next elections.

The rioters weren't trying to destroy France- they just wanted to poke a stick into the eye of the government.  Vehicles, a few stores, and a couple of schools were burnt down.  No one burnt down city hall, or made an obvious display of attacking the government.  As has been pointed out in this thread previously, torching cars is something of a national sport here- it is not an indication of a jihadist conspiracy to create Gaulistan.

Perhaps that motivated some, but we have to look at the organizers. It's not just the puppet but the puppeteers.

Of course it could happen in Canada, it's just less likely.  The response of the French government was essentially:
1) ignore it and hope it will go away
2) make wishy-washy statements asking for calm
3) allow the cold weather to dampen the enthusiasm of the rioters
4) eventually impose curfews and martial law where required

I don't see the probable response of the Canadian government to be substantially different.

In terms of the public response if similar riots were to occur in Canada, I again don't see too much difference- people will see what they want to see, whether it's really there or not.

I have a feeling more force would be used here (surprisingly (or perhaps not, considering that which is being compared)). If not by the government but by private citizens who don't enjoy their cars and houses burnt down. Certainly the issues have not been solved, and likely will not be. I think we can expect this to resurface. At least, I will. Given I'm the conspiratorial Fox News Parrot(tm)