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France Burning

The riots continue to spread - now almost 300 towns/cities. There now seems to be some jihadist involvement in the coordination of attacks. French police are interrogating kids as young as 13. If the police/CRS are afraid to go into immigrant neighborhoods they may not be able to restore order. One might wonder by the poor government response that they hope the rioters will get bored and just go home. If so I think they will be disappointed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174745,00.html
 
tomahawk6 said:
The riots continue to spread - now almost 300 towns/cities. There now seems to be some jihadist involvement in the coordination of attacks. French police are interrogating kids as young as 13. If the police/CRS are afraid to go into immigrant neighborhoods they may not be able to restore order. One might wonder by the poor government response that they hope the rioters will get bored and just go home. If so I think they will be disappointed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174745,00.html

Wow, FOX news interprets this as a jihadist conspiracy....I'm stunned, really....

 
Hmmm....
Who was it that once said:
"The french are revolting!"... to whit some other fella replied: "Yes, aren't they!"

Must say that the knee jerk reaction of some posts to date have left me to wonder why certain individuals waded in, neck deep, on issues that are outside of our canadian jurisdiction while relying on some dubious reports from dubious television networks.

Excluding Clasper who is in Paris, no one here is... over there.

Islamic bashing and french bashing suggests to me that some need a reality check.
 
Since when is rioting considered treason?  I didn't see the US filling boats up for Liberia following Watts, LA riots, or the latest breakdown of law and order in New Orleans.

Hmm. Not such a bad idea maybe.

Oh for the good old days of Botany Bay, Van Diemens Land and the Virginia Colony.  Transportation was such an attractive solution - we got rid of the pests, didn't have to pay for their upkeep, in fact they were productive and paid taxes to keep them there and none of the moral qualms about hanging those disagreeable rabbit poachers and other treasonous wretches.  We really should have tried harder to keep them in the fold rather than turning the prisons over to the inmates.....

Hindsight is always so clear..... >:D ^-^
 
Kirkhill said:
Hmm. Not such a bad idea maybe.

Oh for the good old days of Botany Bay, Van Diemens Land and the Virginia Colony.  Transportation was such an attractive solution - we got rid of the pests, didn't have to pay for their upkeep, in fact they were productive and paid taxes to keep them there

Until they got tired of you taxing the crap out of their tea....its only a temporary solution.
 
Oh I don't know, a couple of hundred years wasn't too bad a run....then we got another century out of the Antipodes. ;)

Besides somebody had to pay to keep the Indians at bay and the French out of Scotland.
 
Kirkhill said:
Oh I don't know, a couple of hundred years wasn't too bad a run....then we got another century out of the Antipodes. ;)

Besides somebody had to pay to keep the Indians at bay and the French out of Scotland.

The problem with that approach is that "we", as you like to say, also sent the Scots out of Scotland, viz.the highland clearances.
 
The problem with that approach is that "we", as you like to say, also sent the Scots out of Scotland, viz.the highland clearances.

But there you have it.  I was born a lowlander.
 
the French have a long tradition of dealing with Islam, and with civil unrest, going back centuries. As much as I despise certain of thier policies, and dislike their "take" on Democracy, I'm sure the government there will eventually reach a solution.
As for us, unless we actually have first-hand sources other than the media, I'd suggest we sit back and watch. Maybe we can learn what to do, and what not to, should similar situations arise here.
 
paracowboy said:
the French have a long tradition of dealing with Islam, and with civil unrest, going back centuries. As much as I despise certain of thier policies, and dislike their "take" on Democracy, I'm sure the government there will eventually reach a solution.
As for us, unless we actually have first-hand sources other than the media, I'd suggest we sit back and watch. Maybe we can learn what to do, and what not to, should similar situations arise here.

Holy cow, paracowboy, your post reads like a love letter to Pierre Trudeau...I guess it really is time we all admitted his multiculturalism policies have really paid off, in contrast to France's policies, huh? ;D
 
GO!!! said:
What you have here (in france) is a perfect example of immigration policies run amok.

Left leaning parties undertake to allow as many immigrants into a country as possible - and then tell them to keep this policy in effect, they will have to vote left! This is not a new idea - NY city politicians did it to the Irish as they stepped off the boat in the 1800s - handing out soup and handbills.

If western democracies are to be successful in maintaining the policies and institutions that made them bastions of wealth and power in the first place, they will have to attract far more immigrants willing to embrace them, as opposed to the "ghetto mentality" in which they only associate with their countrymen in racially homogenous neighborhoods. These are the areas that are such a problem in France right now.

IMO, the French should send a strong message that this behaviour will not be tolerated, and break the mobs with deadly force, followed by a wave of deportations. Fight fire with fire.

Wow.  Yeah.. beacuse NY City politicians have total control over national immigration policies! Maybe you should turn off "Gans of New York" and actually read up on what you're talking about.
 
BKells said:
Wow.   Yeah.. beacuse NY City politicians have total control over national immigration policies! Maybe you should turn off "Gans of New York" and actually read up on what you're talking about.

I've never seen "Gans of NY" or the similarly named Leo DiCaprio flick. So I'm not sure what you can't understand.

The importing of sympathetic voters is not a new idea, many nations and organisations have praticipated right back to the Greeks - and "origional" democracy.

France has a generous social system, and the largest government (highest proportion of employed citizens) in the world. It also has a strong labour movement, and many of the political parties focus on what we would consider "left" leaning policies (especially in the area of agriculture and subsidisation). The immigration policies have always been difficult for foreigners trying to gain citizenship, mostly as a metho of preventing said individuals from taking advantage of the social system. The areas that are experiencing rioting right now are largely filled with arab and african immigrants who lack the skills for gainful employment and the full french citizenship that would ease their living conditions. They are disenfranchised, and poor - and there are lots of them.

While NY city politicians did not ever have control over the immigration policies, they did have an abundance of immigrants who believed that they could work to build a better life for themselves. They were (in the 1800s) primarily Irish, Scottish and to a certain extent, western europeans (Dutch, German, French, Portugese Italian etc.) They were agrarian (that means farmers) and wanted to farm. The US had policies to encourage such immigration as they recognised that a strong rural class with land and the right to vote would expand US power and influence on the international stage with a food surplus, english speaking population and manpower for military purposes.

While the immigrants to the US in the 1800s sought to vote and work, and had the prerequisites for both, the illegal immigrants to france now are often illiterate, skill-less, disenfranchised and thus unemplyable in the current context. They are also not economic migrants in the truest sense of the word. They were often not starving or overly poorly treated where they came from - as many of the NY immigrants were (Irish potato famine) they just wanted to live in a free western democracy, with special priviliges so that they would not have to change any of the behaviours that made their countries of origin so miserable in the first place. Now that there are enough of them, their countries problems have  come with them.

If you doubt the "ghetto" mentality, it exists here in Canada as well - would you walk through Dundas + Jarvis on a friday night alone? Would you fear the descendants of Scottish  and  french immigrants - or someone else?

Is any more reading in order?  ::)

 
The main lesson to learn from this is the importance of not pursuing or supporting policies that divide the population into welfare providers and welfare consumers, particularly if the division can be seen to follow cultural lines.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The main lesson to learn from this is the importance of not pursuing or supporting policies that divide the population into welfare providers and welfare consumers, particularly if the division can be seen to follow cultural lines.
exactly. And while we haven't done this to the extent that France has, we are trying hard to catch up. And as for Trudeau ever having a good idea... ::)
 
daniel h. said:
Well, racially the rioters are certainly not European...though Northern Ireland and the Balkans are nothing to be proud of, it does appear that Muslims and Africans have a higher rate of violent crime as per statistics compared with Europeans. Culturally as well, they are very different which when added to the economic factors is enough to set things off.

Anybody that actually thinks these people should be "integrated" are missing the point. Minorities are a threat to the majority. France is right to not want these people ***** **** **** ****--but the solution was never letting them come to France in the first place--forget the imperial ties.

There are ethnic ghettos in Toronto I know for sure, based on race and/or ethnicity. Whether race-based or ethnic based, they bother me. We never voted for multiculturalism or open immigration so I'm glad our out of touch politicians are finally getting what they deserve--evidence of their bad decision-making.

France even gives immigrants new satellite TV, along with apartments, food, schooling. The immigrants animalistic behaviour is wholly their own responsibility.




MOD EDIT

Lets try and not say things like that. It serves no purpose other than to stereotype and generalize and makes tempers flare.
Slim
STAFF


Fine...all I meant to say was that some diversity is not the end of the world, as we always had some, but after a certain point it becomes more of an issue. If the question is "all or nothing", all diversity or none, then to stay French the French have to put themselves first.
 
Daniel and Brad both have excellent points, which lead to the (my) solution for the disturbances that france is now experiencing.

There can be no identifiable cultures within any sort of government that relies on mass participation. To truly be a "nation" as opposed to a "state", there must be a measure of cultural homogenity. In other words, newcomers must be assimilated, not encouraged to keep their cultural idiosyncraties with them in a new geographic area. By marginalising themselves, the minorities become, by definition, inward looking, and neglect to participate (or seek to participate) in the state that they are a part of.

Given that many of these migrants are migrating due to uncomfortable conditions at their points of origin, why would any sane state permit these conditions to be re-created in a new geographical location? The same people, with the same attitudes bring --- SURPRISE! the same problems. In the case of the french migrants - poverty, violence and crime.

If these migrants were 1) cleared for entry into the country before being permitted to work, drive, obtain basic health care services, rent a dwelling or obtain credit (Australia is a leader in this area) 2) Settled in a manner which would prevent ghettoization (Canada has this policy, but it is not enforced) 3) forced to integrate, with a concentration on employment, knowledge of and participation in their assigned comunities, payment of taxes and confirm it all with ongoing citizenship tests over a period of years. Confirm the works of it with a "3 strikes your deported" policy, and we will successfully integrate all who really want to live here.

There is no excuse for the illegal immigration that has taken place, it is a testament to the laziness and apathy of us, the voters, to inspire governmnet.

The problems france has are not here yet. We have a strong economy, everyone willing to work (or move to find work) has a job which will feed them. Economics are cyclical though, and we will find ourselves in the "french predicament" soon enough.

Thoughts?
 
All I know is that we had better attain our immigration goal of 1% of our population annually (as per Liberal policy) or our economy will soon collapse. Why, just look at Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland with their 0% population growth.

Sarcasm aside, the requirement for increased immigration quotas is a fraud.

Does anyone wonder why we as a society are so keen on granting full licences to third-world doctors now working in Canada as taxi drivers? A better effort would be to pay them and send them back to their country of origin so that they may provide desperately needed medical care in the countries that paid to train them. I can think of no greater arrogance than for a country like Canada to rape developing countries of their best and brightest trained professionals so that our waiting times for a family doctor may be shortened.

Recently, the Toronto Star ran an article about preparing the Greater Toronto Area for millions of new immigrants over the next few decades. Ever been to Mexico City? Bangkok? Two words comes to mind: pollution and slums. I don't live in Toronto, but I've been there during the endless smog alerts. Now try adding five million more people. Oh, they'll fit all right....but.....Why?

The Liberals confuse me so. On one hand, Canada's most famous, least funny comic, Rick Mercer, beats us over the head with the infamous One Ton Challenge. Tells us how we must all conserve. How, pray tell, can composting my orange peels and driving a Smart Car counteract millions of new immigrants?

The apologists state that we're all immigrants. Does that mean we therefore lack the intelligence to know when enough is enough? Examples of excessive immigration without integration leads to riots like in France, and years ago in Great Britain. But I say it is the environment that trumps all other arguments.

(And for the record, I fully support reasonable, pre-screened refugee immigration)
 
France has some other problems
Bit of a caste system that these North African immigrants are having an impossible time busting out of... they've been encouraged to live in these suburban communities that have become, in many respects, ghettos of the poor, the immigrants and their kin with no prospect for the future.
 
Infanteer said:
Since when is rioting considered treason?  I didn't see the US filling boats up for Liberia following Watts, LA riots, or the latest breakdown of law and order in New Orleans.
It is not a matter of simply being a riot, is it?
Irregardless of who is committing these crimes, the "dirty Muslim" chanters (yes, I'm looking at you Daniel H) need to tone down the rhetoric - the quote about "opening your

For the record, I am not chanting "dirty Muslim" anything.
As well, from what news I've read, these youth are children of immigrants, which makes them French citizens full stop.  France cannot abscond from its responsibility by deporting people based upon their ancestry.  I'm second generation Canadian and I don't expect to be shot back to Denmark if I commit I crime.  Those that advocate treating these people any different from a Catholic Frank from Burgundy burning a bus and causing mayhem better re-examine their argument cause it stinks of "dirty Muslim" bias.
I would say the difference is that you identifty yourself as Canadian and are not violently hostile to what Canada is. For instance, the Kadr family. I certainly think is a candidate for dissolution of citizenship. They certainly bare no loyalty to this country, and only come to destroy it. Why must we suffer the Kadr's of the world? Just so we can claim multicultural tolerance? There are many peaceful Muslims who live in Canada that don't want these extremists here either.
In general, my sentiments lie with GO!!! and Bruce - martial law and curfews; anyone causing a disturbance or breaking curfew will be detained and anyone resisting will be shot.  However, my only caution is to avoid giving the appearance of an "Intifada" - soldiers shooting youth will bring out mass crowds and garner support for the rabble rousers (despite the reasons why they were killed in the first place); this is how the First Intifada was successful and the Israelis were undone on the moral level.
Well, you seem very hostile to the idea of deportation, but shooting them is a much better solution? We both know that there will be many resisters. I am sure that France will attempt to be as non lethal as possible before choosing that line. Remember that France has been close to electing (along with other European nations) those that wish to put far more extreme clamps on immigration. I would say this could weigh heavily on the electorates choices.
 
Dare said:
When does treason dissolve citizenship?
Civil unrest is usually only regarded as treason when it is advocating the overthrow of the exisiting regime.

This is not a very small group of "agitators" and they are being coordinated, as has been reported by every source I have found. As it stands to reason, such things do not happen en mass spontaniously. In fact, the French Justice Minister has stated they are coordinating their efforts. They are being encouraged and directed by Islamic militants. So perhaps, it's not entirely a coincidence.. and if it were so, where are the poor Catholic car bombers and poor Buddhist car bombers? Surely not all of the "ghetto" dwelling guest workers are Muslim..

Actually these things DO happen spontaneously, but they certainly don't happen for no reason. They can be, and often are, steered by small groups of agitators. You are entirely missing the forest for the trees (and the Catholic and Buddist straw man isn't worthy of comment).

And I do not speak of "ghetto mentality" other than to say it is a smokescreen for the true mentality.. which is, ultimately, subjugation. Bigotry? Well, it would seem that there is a genuine threat in amongst this particular group of immigrant bigots, indeed. Considering they are upgrading to rifles now, and after 1,300 burnt cars.. no sign of a decrease.. I wouldn't be surprised to see this spread amongst other European countries.

EDIT: Number correction.

I don't expect to change your mind. It was made up long ago, if your posts are any indication.
 
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