Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[a_majoor]

I  find it ironic that we will focus so much energy on making sure that everyone knows how in shape we are while as an instructor I'm not allowed to give a student a letter grade on a course.

Sadly, even that can be screwed up. I'm not sure if this has changed, but in the PLQ "Other arms and services", the recce patrol marking guide actually had marks pre loaded, essentially, if someone hit the check box, they would receive a mark (because of the number of check boxes, often it was .5% or something odd like that).

This could lead to bizzare results like "Cpl Bloggins, this patrol was poorly planed and executed. You did not do item X, Y or Z, had a very poor time apprieciation and also did a very minimal job in items A, B and C. You got a 76%, sign here....

Methods of assessment are important, but they need to be carefully considered. My own thought is that leadership, skill competency and fitness might be much better reported through a form of 3600 assessment, but that is probably a thought for another thread.

 

[armyvern]

I agree with you that fitness should be graded on a curve ie. a 40 year old W.O shouldn't be expected to turn in the same time on a run as a 20 year old private. However if the fitness standard is based on a run or a ruck march and an individual is unable to pass it unfortunately hey can't turn around and say "but my lap time in the pool is this" as that isn't what has been used to set the standard.

Wow - talk about trying to put words into someone's mouth.  :

No where did I state that fitness should be graded on a curve; if you read my posts in this very thread you'd know that. I didn't even bring up age.  In fact, you'll even find a post in the past couple days where I spoke to the 4'2" 92 pound fit-as-hell female who can't do the drag therefore will never get to serve in the CF; too bad for her. 

I said, "why do some people think that just because someone can't run means they are unfit".  I can't run, but I passed the FORCE test.  I thought it was a legit question --- there are actually people who believe this!! If you can not run - you are unfit. Period. Full stop. 

______________________

But, now that you've3 brought it up:

4'2" super-fit girl who is simply too tiny to drag the bags and thus will never serve in the CF because she can't meet the minimum also has has her polar opposite:

the 5'11" monster who, if he were 2 inches shorter would be identical to an unfit circle, who only needs to take 2 strides between lines on the shuttle (thus aces it) and leans back on his 335 pounds of non-muscle to move the bags who does get to stay in the CAF.  He aced the FORCE and will still be endangering spectators Nov 11th whilst testing the max velocity of the buttons on his tunic.

I suspect what people really want is some sort of "judge them upon their looks" testing so they can be rest-assured that anyone being allowed to wear the CF uniform look good in public - not fat.  Tall, large, unfit people are passing this test and exceedingly fit short, tiny people will fail it.  'Tis the way it is.

 

[x_para76]

Once again I agree with you as I have friends who've been in this position based on body mass index charts and all that b.s. If you're a female who's mega cardio fit but just doesn't have the mass to manage a ruck march then what good does your fitness do the CF if you can't pass the basic CFT?  All I was trying to say earlier was that regardless of the trade it's unlikely that a 40 year old Snr nco will be able to achieve the same time on a run as a 20 year old junior private.

 

[George Wallace]

  All I was trying to say earlier was that regardless of the trade it's unlikely that a 40 year old Snr nco will be able to achieve the same time on a run as a 20 year old junior private.

;D

Unfortunately, many of us have seen 40 year old Snr NCOs run faster than 20 year old privates. 

Just saying.

 

[a_majoor]

In once sense I agree with you 100% Vern; I'd far rather have that micro-Amazon watching my back than a 5'11" doorstop, mostly because I would know who is motivated and who is not.

OTOH, I have had some of these people in training and regardless of their fitness and motivation, there are some tasks that they simply have a very difficult time doing. Very small female soldiers, regardless of fitness, have a hell of a time ruck marching because they are carrying far more than 1/3 of their body mass when fully rucked up. Once I am armoured and rucked up and add my share of platoon ammo etc. I am usually past 1/3 of my weight, and it is a hell of a burden (and you know how big I am).

The other reason that I am a supporter (in general) of standard and universal fitness tests is that regardless of age or gender, a GPMG will ALWAYS weigh 11kg without the tripod; do I force certain troops to constantly carry the big and heavy stuff simply because the older or female troops have a lower standard of fitness? Now I also know that Loggies, cooks and clerks don't do Infantry tasks, but given the ever shifting defense environment, where there is no secure rear and people of every trade (and even environment) might be expected to fight riding shotgun in a convoy, defending an airfield or boarding a ship, we should ask that there is a fitness level set where people can function in combat as well as in their primary trade. I just don't know where to find that sweet spot.

 

[armyvern]

... I just don't know where to find that sweet spot.

Well, I think the CF has said that sweet spot is the FORCE Test.  I agree on the motivation.  I'm also akin to thinking that if the shit hit the fan, I'd rather have the beast because I know he can drag my ass.

If someone is willing to put more than 24 hours into a day so that trades like mine can go to the gym for hours, or twice a day etc, then we'd be more fit I am sure.  But, as long as we have a primary trade to do with the numbers we have and no more hours, we'll never be as combat fit as as combat troop.

 

[caocao]

Sounds to me like a leadership problem.  Everybody should be given access to PT during working hours to achieve the minimum standard, full stop.

 

[Franko]

Sounds to me like a leadership problem.  Everybody should be given access to PT during working hours to achieve the minimum standard, full stop.

Sometimes there isn't enough time in a day to achieve that goal, mostly due to manning issues.

Perhaps you'd like to see everyone stay past 1700 everyday or come in at 0500 and give up family time?

Unit leadership can do that if you'd like.

Regards

 

[OldSolduer]

Sounds to me like a leadership problem.  Everybody should be given access to PT during working hours to achieve the minimum standard, full stop.

If you think you can sort it out, step up to the plate.
Your post adds nothing.

 

[x_para76]

;D

Unfortunately, many of us have seen 40 year old Snr NCOs run faster than 20 year old privates. 

Just saying.

Which is was why I said it is unlikely but not impossible.

 

[George Wallace]

Which is was why I said it is unlikely but not impossible.

Unlikely....Impossible....Not much difference.


I have seen many a 40 year old NCO out run 18 year old Ptes.  There is no "unlikely" at all.

 

[x_para76]

Really? Well I haven't and that's where our experiences differ I suppose.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Despite CDS Guidance to CO's on PT and physical fitness, reality kicks in at times and as Nerf Herder says, you just don't have time for PT.  In our world, if you have a 2130hrs show time for a 10 hour gig, if all goes well you are back on the ground about 1000hrs the next morning.  The last thing you're thinking of is PT.  Crew rest before/after (you need it) so forget PT for those 2 days.  Your email has X amount of things requiring actioning after you get back.  Secondary duties to do.  It is not easy for folks who have to leave the desk or crew room to do their primary job to fit PT in on a daily basis.

Having said that, here are a few quotes from the CDS Guidance to Commanding Officers's, Ch 22 - Canadian Forces Physical Fitness Programs.  The policy and direction on PT/fitness for the CAF are already there.

- physical fitness is a leadership issue (if you read the entire Ch, you will see how this ties in for those who may not agree)

- provide fitness leadership at every level in your respective units. This must include leading by example, helping subordinates get fit, and enforcing fitness policies.

- It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied.

- The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.

- Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.

- Do not turn a blind eye to obesity. Obesity is a valid indicator of current or developing health problems. We have solid evidence-based weight loss programs in the CF, the utilization of which will benefit both our operational readiness and the health of the CF member.

 

[OldSolduer]

All good points EITS.

 

[caocao]

If you think you can sort it out, step up to the plate.
Your post adds nothing.

Your post adds nothing either.  Folks in my unit take the time to do PT, i sometime have time to do my own PT during working hours, my CO really does but the troops do and that is what matters.

 

[caocao]

Despite CDS Guidance to CO's on PT and physical fitness, reality kicks in at times and as Nerf Herder says, you just don't have time for PT.  In our world, if you have a 2130hrs show time for a 10 hour gig, if all goes well you are back on the ground about 1000hrs the next morning.  The last thing you're thinking of is PT.  Crew rest before/after (you need it) so forget PT for those 2 days.  Your email has X amount of things requiring actioning after you get back.  Secondary duties to do.  It is not easy for folks who have to leave the desk or crew room to do their primary job to fit PT in on a daily basis.

Having said that, here are a few quotes from the CDS Guidance to Commanding Officers's, Ch 22 - Canadian Forces Physical Fitness Programs.  The policy and direction on PT/fitness for the CAF are already there.

- physical fitness is a leadership issue (if you read the entire Ch, you will see how this ties in for those who may not agree)

- provide fitness leadership at every level in your respective units. This must include leading by example, helping subordinates get fit, and enforcing fitness policies.

- It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied.

- The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.

- Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.

- Do not turn a blind eye to obesity. Obesity is a valid indicator of current or developing health problems. We have solid evidence-based weight loss programs in the CF, the utilization of which will benefit both our operational readiness and the health of the CF member.

Great post, agreed that sometime you will have to put PT aside for op requirements but that should be the exception not the rule.

 

[armyvern]

Sounds to me like a leadership problem.  Everybody should be given access to PT during working hours to achieve the minimum standard, full stop.

No leadership problem;  we do PT for an hour each and every day.  It's mandatory in our Unit.  It will never make us as fit as infantry guys.  We still work our regular jobs a minimum of 8-9 hours each and every day after that hour of PT.  Like I said, want to add more hours for PT time, then add more hours to the day or get more staff for us because those "regular work hours" are not going anywhere no matter how much time we spend on PT.  Other trades have quite a few more hours in their "work day" that they can hit the gym; some of us do not have that luxury.

The fact that I can't run has nothing to do with how many hours I spend at PT ... I couldn't run as a super fit 20 year old either.

 

[armyvern]

Your post adds nothing either.  Folks in my unit take the time to do PT, i sometime have time to do my own PT during working hours, my CO really does but the troops do and that is what matters.

So, you seem to be someone who believes that if someone can't run then that means they are unfit.  Bullshit.  Full stop.  All you seemed to take from my post that I couldn't run was "that there must therefore be a leadership problem and PT should occur daily".  You. my friend, are one of the ones I was talking about.

It's like I used to tell my ex (a 3 CDO boy) who used to get the gold every year on the warrior test while I got the bronze ('cause I couldn't run) when he used to ask when I'd be re-doing my run until I got the gold standard:  "Laugh if you want honey, but I kick your ass on the range every time and it doesn't matter if you can out-run me because my bullet is guaranteed to catch your ass every time."

 

[caocao]

So, you seem to be someone who believes that if someone can't run then that means they are unfit.  Bullshit.  Full stop.  All you seemed to take from my post that I couldn't run was "that there must therefore be a leadership problem and PT should occur daily".  You. my friend, are one of the ones I was talking about.

It's like I used to tell my ex (a 3 CDO boy) who used to get the gold every year on the warrior test while I got the bronze ('cause I couldn't run) when he used to ask when I'd be re-doing my run until I got the gold standard:  "Laugh if you want honey, but I kick your *** on the range every time and it doesn't matter if you can out-run me because my bullet is guaranteed to catch your *** every time."

Where did i say anything about running in my posts?  Your post seemed to imply that there wasn't enough time in a day for PT.  If i miss read it, my bad.  And stop that bullet $hit right now young lady, you're not scaring anyone!

 

[Franko]

Where did i say anything about running in my posts?  Your post seemed to imply that there wasn't enough time in a day for PT.  If i miss read it, my bad.  And stop that bullet $hit right now young lady, you're not scaring anyone!

Back on topic folks.

The Army.ca Staff