Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[GnyHwy]

This topic always gets me going.  Although, I believe the basic standards are necessary, it seems every once in awhile the good idea fairy has to try and change things.  I don't think anything is wrong with what we have now, and I think if it was enforced, the persons that aren't shape would still fail.  Increasing the standard will only increase the number of persons not meeting the standard, but in the end won't change a thing.

A baseline standard is necessary, but to hold everyone to a level that you would expect of a 30yr old cbt arms soldier is not the right approach.  Many people have fulltime jobs that only allow for a simple 1 hour PT per day (if that).  Should they have to do extra hours to meet a higher standard?  Cbt arms troops do physical things as a part of their job, and likely have PT built in to their daily schedule, and if they don't they should.

COs challenges are fine for the morale of those who do well, but the average person probably doesn't give a crap, and worse, it may alienate the not so athletic. That non athletic guy might be the guy who's actually holding things together behind the scenes, while the athletes flex their muscles.

There are many more characteristics, skills, and attributes that are important to the military.  To take a valuable planner, organizer, logistician out of the military because he is old or partially broken doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jollyjacktar]

So then, along that line of thinking, i am highly unlikely to do the things described by Airmich as par of my job on deployment or OP.

What are we testing again ?

(Universality of of service, yes, i know)

Would the test perhaps consist of running check in's and check out's with two pieces of luggage for you Sqn types? 

 

[buzgo]

It all comes down to human rights and universality of service. I am not sure if anyone has contested the current PT testing, but if the EXPRES/BFT combo was contested we would probably lose. The current regime of testing is not based on a BFOR.

The whole point of this is to have that BFOR based, measurable, standardized test. That would stand up to a human rights tribunal.

 

[Haggis]

It all comes down to human rights and universality of service. I am not sure if anyone has contested the current PT testing, but if the EXPRES/BFT combo was contested we would probably lose.

The curent CF standards and testing methodology have been tested in law and have been upheld.  Remember that the CF EXPRES program is a predictive test desgined to measure the probability that someone will be able to complete the Five CF Common Military Task test (i.e. the gold standard).

The current regime of testing is not based on a BFOR.

  The EXPRES program is based on BFOR in place at the time the program was implemented.  The LFCPFS is not based on BFOR.

The whole point of this is to have that BFOR based, measurable, standardized test. That would stand up to a human rights tribunal.

We have that now.  However, times have changed and BFOR have evolved.  Case in point is that our current EXPRES scoring matrix ends at age 55.  CRA is now 60.  People are living longer now and, consequently, can serve in the CF in a relevant capacity for longer.  Those people still have to meet U of S (BFOR) and, therefore our fitness testing must account for and measure the fitness of members aged 56-60.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Does scoring exempt on your fitness test reflect on your PER at all?

 

[PuckChaser]

Does scoring exempt on your fitness test reflect on your PER at all?

BFT pass and EXPRES Exempt are both worth 2 points currently. EXPRES Pass is 1 point.

 

[Pusser]

Let me throw this one out there.  Let's dispense with all the administrative nonsense associated with fitness testing and failures and simply dispense with fitness testing.  Instead, we should introduce and maintain a culture of fitness where members remain fit, simply because they can't avoid it.  We run the crap out of people on basic training and then immediately stop at the end and tell everyone they're on their own for the remainder of their careers (with possible exception of the combat arms).  Where's the logic in that? 

It's great that we have direction now that PT during working hours is to be encouraged and supported, but that direction is not being universally followed or applied and certainly no one is out there ensuring that folks are exercising.  We need stronger encouragement (perhaps even making regular exercise mandatory) and better facilities.

In my mind, a culture of fitness is far superior to a punitive policy of negative reinforcement.

 

[fraserdw]

The best enforcer of PT is comd buy in.  I remember a long time ago during the cold war on a yank Fort being awoken to all these noisy guys singing and running.  Must have been a 1000 of them, now we were not on a training base.  Anyway a few days later we were on parade getting divisional challenge coins from the Div Comdr .....and ..... guess what ......... he was the guy that was leading that early morning PT session.  He had to be in his 50s but he was at the front every morning in garrison.  I have not had a PT session with anyone above the rank of Capt since 1999, despite the fact that CO's PT on Friday is a requirement for the whole unit (including 4 LCols, 9 Majors).

If we try to make PT a requirement for everyone, our PT support infrastructure would quickly break down.  Heck in Gagetown, there is not enough parking spots at the gym during the peak periods now let alone equipment in the gym.  We have a Major portion of the running trail closed for a year because of a 2 foot round hole that no one seems to be able to fix.  There is no commitment to universal PT in the CF, never has been.  Like the man said you are on your own after training, fit it in to your regular job.

 

[Pusser]

Heck in Gagetown, there is not enough parking spots at the gym [/color] during the peak periods now let alone equipment in the gym. 

There's a certain irony in that.  Part of my point is that you shouldn't need them.  If everyone ran or bicycled to the gym...

There may not be enough parking spots at the gym, but I'll bet there are lot more than there are decent bicycle spots.

Overall though, I hear you on the infrastructure.  I agree that it won't currently support everyone using it everyday, but I would argue that investing in improving it would be better than the cost of losing trained personnel because we kick them out over a fitness test.

 

[dogger1936]

New PT test testing std's...so do you get swabbed between the sandbag carry and the run?

 

[McG]

The curent CF standards and testing methodology have been tested in law and have been upheld.  Remember that the CF EXPRES program is a predictive test desgined to measure the probability that someone will be able to complete the Five CF Common Military Task test (i.e. the gold standard).

The EXPRES program is based on BFOR in place at the time the program was implemented.  ...

The defenders of the CF Express often say this.  I have no doubt that this was truly an intent when the program was developed, but I cannot believe the intent was achieved.  If the ability to complete X repetitions of some activity is a statistical predictor of one's ability to complete a common task, then the number X should be constant.  A physically demanding task does not become magically less demanding because one has gotten older or because one is a woman.  Right now, the CF minimum pass standard is that a 34 year old male must to 19 push-ups and 19 sit-ups (neither one a difficult standard) to demonstrate he is statistically likely to complete the common military tasks - a 35 year old woman proves the same with 7 push-ups and 12 sit-ups.

I don't believe it.  Either we're demanding something beyond the statistical predictor of success for youth & males, or we're reducing the standard for women and older members.

 

[armyvern]

...
Also I have been hearing that the Army is now doing the EXPRES and BFT...

I know where you heard this ... and, it's not true, It's just us. I know many a pers at many an Army Base/Unit and none of them is doing both (not even my old man [5 Bgde]).

 

[McG]

...
Also I have been hearing that the Army is now doing the EXPRES and BFT...

I know where you heard this ... and, it's not true, It's just us. I know many a pers at many an Army Base/Unit and none of them is doing both (not even my old man [5 Bgde]).

It should be what the Army is doing though.  As long as the current BFT will hide guys that would fail the CF Express (and give them exempt status for the PER too), the Army should insist on the CF Express as gateway to conducting the BFT.

 

[armyvern]

I know where you heard this ... and, it's not true, It's just us. I know many a pers at many an Army Base/Unit and none of them is doing both (not even my old man [5 Bgde]).It should be what the Army is doing though.  As long as the current BFT will hide guys that would fail the CF Express (and give them exempt status for the PER too), the Army should insist on the CF Express as gateway to conducting the BFT.

Oh, I agree; a unit is passing as "fact" that it is already occurring in the Army (as justification for their doing both) while it isn't and isn't even in the Army's future plans.

I think we should all do both.

 

[Haggis]

I know where you heard this ... and, it's not true, It's just us. I know many a pers at many an Army Base/Unit and none of them is doing both (not even my old man [5 Bgde]).It should be what the Army is doing though.  As long as the current BFT will hide guys that would fail the CF Express (and give them exempt status for the PER too), the Army should insist on the CF Express as gateway to conducting the BFT.

Reservists working on Class B in the VCDS Group are required to do both the BFT and the EXPRES if they are parading voluntarily with an Army Reserve unit in addition to their Class B duties.

There is another benefit to this.  The CF EXPRES also includes a pre-test heart rate and blood pressure check, key in identifying persons who could be at risk from intense physical activity and sending them towards the CF medical system.  There is no such gateway with the BFT.  I have heard tales of folks at NDHQ doing the BFT expressly to avoid having to get their BP checked and potentially ending up on a TCat or worse.

 

[Takeniteasy]

I am going to write a book on military fitness one day and I won't mention in one chapter how many push ups, chin ups, how fast to run or even how much weight to hump, lift or push...

 

[GnyHwy]

Sounds good to me, because I hate all of those.

What about sandbags?

 

[Sub_Guy]

Would the test perhaps consist of running check in's and check out's with two pieces of luggage for you Sqn types? 

Throw in a broken elevator, and get those suitcases up to the 25th floor in under 10!

I don't mind the expres test as it is right now, as we will never find a common test, to please everyone. 

I highly doubt I will perform any of those tasks listed, although if I am the Designated Driver on an upcoming TD, I could see myself having to haul a body out of the vehicle (Perhaps CDN_A?)....

 

[aesop081]

(Perhaps CDN_A?)....

I wouldn't be surprised. I hear that guy can be quite the trainwreck.

 

[Robert0288]

There's a certain irony in that.  Part of my point is that you shouldn't need them.  If everyone ran or bicycled to the gym...

There may not be enough parking spots at the gym, but I'll bet there are lot more than there are decent bicycle spots.

Overall though, I hear you on the infrastructure.  I agree that it won't currently support everyone using it everyday, but I would argue that investing in improving it would be better than the cost of losing trained personnel because we kick them out over a fitness test.

I don't see the need for a gym or facilities for a PT session.  You just need room (field/parking lot), your own body weight and maybe a chin up bar.  If you really want to be keen you can grab some water jerrys, or some sand bags.