Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[aesop081]

I think the BFT is junk - I've NEVER carried a rucksack for 13km on a deployment or an op.

So then, along that line of thinking, i am highly unlikely to do the things described by Airmich as par of my job on deployment or OP.

What are we testing again ?

(Universality of of service, yes, i know)

 

[Halifax Tar]

Whatever Project FORCE delivers, there needs to be a single CF fitness test as opposed to the current selection of tests. 

Neither the ability to run nor the ability to march with a ruck act as a statistically significant indicator of one's ability to do the other.  That means that the current BFT passes individuals who would fail the CF Express, and it gives these people exempt score at merit boards.

The future Army fitness test either needs to be the CF test, the CF test with a higher standard, or the CF test with a "bolt on" Army specific module.

Here is some related reading on both Project FORCE and the disparity between what is measured by current CF and Army fitness testing: 
http://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/HumanPerformance/Documents/CAJ_vol13.2_09_e.pdf
and from another source :http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_13/iss_2/CAJ_vol13.2_09_e.pdf

Couldn't agree with you more MCG.  I know it seemed frustrating to me being in Halifax where I was not allowed to do the BFT.  It appeared  to me to be an easy point for land based pers on their PERs.  Especially when you know some could/would not reach the exempt level on the XPRESS test.  One standard for all, regardless of age, gender or environment.

 

[PMedMoe]

One standard for all, regardless of age, gender or environment.

And apparently regardless of height....

sandbag lift (simulating lifting sandbags into the back of a truck - timed test).  Afternoon was famil for the rest

I remember the last time they did this type of trial (mid/late 90's and it never came to fruition) where ammo cans were being loaded into the back of an MLVW.  Really sucks when you're short.....  :

So then, along that line of thinking, i am highly unlikely to do the things described by Airmich as par of my job on deployment or OP.

What are we testing again ?

(Universality of of service, yes, i know)

CDN Aviator, I agree with you.  Besides, as long as there's CSOR, JTF-2, etc, there will never be one fitness standard.


With this talk and the thread about Messes (All ranks or not), my decision whether to pull pole next year or not just keeps getting easier.

 

[navymich]

What are you impressions of the test ?  Did you find it challenging ?  Do you think it better reflects the required fitness standards of CF pers ?

Personally, I liked most of the elements of the Project.  I have never been exceptionally fit and I dread the shuttle run and pushups every year, although I do pass.  But I enjoyed the "operational" elements of the testing.  I found them challenging, yet motivating to try and push myself harder for more weight or speed.

The other thing that I enjoyed was the encouragement between all of the testers.  When you do the regular expres test, everyone is running together and the rest is fairly limited.  Whereas in this testing, everyone is there together and motivating each other.  Even though it is individual testing, it feels more of a team atmosphere.

The way that the staff described each scenario, yes, I do believe that it better reflects what any of us could be required to do.  Yes, there are always going to be situations where you need different training, but, as mentioned, there is likely to be specific deployment testing for other requirements.

And apparently regardless of height....

Mo, this was actually discussed during the testing.  The tape line on the wall to indicate the truck bed was lower then what would be normal as they realized that, although realistic, it was going to be difficult for the shorter pers to be able to manage.  When they put the call out for volunteers, it was based on various height ranges as well as gender and age.  We also had the opportunity to put our comments at the end, and the height issues were mentioned by many people.  I am 5'5" and I was comfortable with anything requiring height, although I know that the taller guys had an advantage for some of the elements.

 

[navymich]

There were a couple of cons that we discussed with the new testing. 

The first is regarding training for the testing.  Right now, you can hit the treadmill or run around the block, pump off some sit-ups and push-ups, and you should be decent for the expres test.  This new one will require more preparation if it is something you are not used to, and will need coaching on what to do to work up to the elements and how to do it, not to mention equipment.

The PSP staff brought up another point and that was regarding the testing equipment.  Right now, they can set up the expres test in the local gym easily enough.  And for when they need to go to outlying areas, it is easy enough to pack up a BP cuff, some cones to set distance and a grip tester.  The new testing would require a fair amount equipment for each base and the logistics to move it for distance testing would be required.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The intent is that testing will be done by the chain of command - MCpls and above.  No PSP required.

 

[navymich]

The intent is that testing will be done by the chain of command - MCpls and above.  No PSP required.

Regardless, the equipment is still required at all locations, or available to be taken to outlying locations.

 

[captloadie]

I think one of the items they should look at is having an aggregate score to pass, and not necessarily a minimum for all events. This would better reflect real life scenarios. For example, if you are vertically challenged, you would likely be assigned to carry sandbags to a truck, or fill them, not lift them into the back. On the test, you shouldn't fail because of the way you are built.

As for having the CoC administer the testing, I think this could be a slippery slope, unless none of the tests rely on an evaluator's judgment. Personalities can easily get in the way. You don't like someone, you are a little tougher on them, your buddy is having a hard time, you let it slide a little. PSP staff are at least seen as impartial.   

 

[PuckChaser]

The MSVS is tall for everyone, I'm 6'1" and would find putting sandbags into a truck that tall more tiring then putting them into a LSVW.

Perhaps the final test will come out with a scoring system, we need a way to differentiate people who pass with the minimum and people who are in good physical condition. Especially if we still have the PER system with PT test pass and exempt marks.

 

[dapaterson]

The Army intent is that testing will be done by the chain of command - MCpls and above.  No PSP required.

Certain other near-military environments have other ideas on that front...

 

[ttlbmg]

Question in regards to this, will this be extending into BMQ and BMOQ courses soon as well? What would be your suggestions to train for this prior to completion, in terms of someone training in anticipation of going to basic?

 

[Brasidas]

As for having the CoC administer the testing, I think this could be a slippery slope, unless none of the tests rely on an evaluator's judgment. Personalities can easily get in the way. You don't like someone, you are a little tougher on them, your buddy is having a hard time, you let it slide a little. PSP staff are at least seen as impartial. 

Reference buddy completing pre-para test, doing 6 chin-ups, then after the fact buddy saying "none of those were with proper technique", do 'em again. Buddy does 5 more, fails test.

Yeah, I can see PSP staff doing a test being preferable.

 

[aesop081]

Yeah, I can see PSP staff doing a test being preferable.

Yes, the yoga pants-wearing 22 year-old who graduated with a Kin degree 2 weeks ago and has no military experience what so ever, is definately the best person to evaluate my fitness to conduct operations.

 

[dapaterson]

Yes, the yoga pants-wearing 22 year-old who graduated with a Kin degree 2 weeks ago and has no military experience what so ever, is definately the best person to evaluate my fitness to conduct operations.

...not that there's anything wrong with 22 year olds wearing yoga pants, especially when you're out walking your dog...

 

[aesop081]

...not that there's anything wrong with 22 year olds wearing yoga pants, especially when you're out walking your dog...

If it was any other way, i would not have a dog !!!

 

[buzgo]

Yes, the yoga pants-wearing 22 year-old who graduated with a Kin degree 2 weeks ago and has no military experience what so ever, is definately the best person to evaluate my fitness to conduct operations.

I think the point is that they are hopefully going to be unbiased. We aren't the most trustworthy when it comes to assessing fitness tests. I have seen a lot of people 'pass' physical fitness test elements that they either didn't do or failed... trench dig comes to mind.

 

[dapaterson]

I think the point is that they are hopefully going to be unbiased. We aren't the most trustworthy when it comes to assessing fitness tests. I have seen a lot of people 'pass' physical fitness test elements that they either didn't do or failed... trench dig comes to mind.

Note the LFCO states the trench dig can be waived if facilities are not available.


If your unit passes people who failed the test, there are deeper problems than just PT.

 

[aesop081]

I think the point is that they are hopefully going to be unbiased.

And none of us are freinds with PSP staff, right ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I might have my head up in dark places, but has there been a report or soemthign produced that has identified specific fuctional fitness problems that this test is designed to address?

"It has been observed that troops consistently fail to demonstrate the ability to dig in because they are strong enough. We should create a test that addresses that functional requirement."

In the past, it's been my experience that the 'good idea' or 'fitness flavour of the month' fairy has more to do with military fitness trest design than any real scientific analysis. I'm hoping that this is in some way different and better.

 

[Journeyman]

- casualty evacuation (pulling a loaded dummy out of the front seat of a truck, dragging then 1/2 weight to simulate someone helping you); end based on weight
- pickets & wires (walking loaded, running empty handed; 10-30m stretches repeatedly;

Finally, a relevant PT test.  :blotto:


I actually have nothing to contribute. This topic has reappeared every 2-3 years of my military career...along with field pay, uniforms and badges, and how [insert words of choice] everyone posted to NDHQ becomes.  I'll leave them all to the good-idea fairies, thanks.